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Re: Republicanism still an ...

TradeSurplus
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SubjectRe: Republicanism still an offence in England? (wasRe: Queen mother (of
FromTradeSurplus
Date2002-04-16 21:17 (2002-04-16 21:17)
Message-ID<zN_u8.12872$kj3.3760922723@newssvr10.news.prodigy.com>
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Newsgroupsalt.fan.tolkien
FollowsJay Random
Jay Random wrote ...

Jay Random
TradeSurplus wrote:

TradeSurplus
Let's analyze this a bit. I replied to Russ that most of the Great Powers

of

the world have committed colonization. You replied "So have virtually all the small powers".

Jay Random
NO. You said the Great Powers had all committed `state-sanctioned murder and attempted genocide'. NOT colonization.

Can't you look back through the thread yourself instead of getting me to do all the work? Here's what was said:

Tradesurplus wrote:

Russ wrote:

TradeSurplus
Tradesurplus wrote:

Jay Random
colonization of territory captured in war is evil and wrong,

TradeSurplus
You've just described virtually the entire world.

Jay Random
No I haven't. I've just described virtually all the great powers of the world because power is necessary for both colonization and genocide.

You could try to get at least the _easily verifiable_ facts right.

You're right that I also said that all virutally all great powers also committed state sanctioned murder and attempted genocide but attempted genocide is part and parcel of most colonization attempts therefore obviously nearly all great powers who colonized also attempted genocide.

TradeSurplus
Colonizaztion is what the case is all about. That is the evil that Israel

is

currently committing. That is the evil that Russ claimed almost everyone

is

guilty of. That is the evil that I have shown many peoples and nations

are

not guilty of. Conquest is a red herring that you introduced all by

yourself

and that has no applicability to the current debate.

Jay Random
In that case, the Palestinians ought not to object to the continued Israeli occupation of the West Bank, as long as Israelis don't settle there.

Pretty much exactly what I said to Russ in my first post on this thread.

The occupation is _conquest_; the settlement is a significant irritant, but incidental to the main issue.

The settlement is pure evil. Settlement is much more of a statement by the Israelis that they want the Palestinians to stop existing than all the Arab bluster about pushing Israel into the sea. The settlers want to utterly destroy the Palestinian people by forcing individual Palestinians to become Egyptians, Lebanese, Syrians or Jordanians. Destruction of an entire people is a very bad thing, as I said in another post.

TradeSurplus
The history you give shows how these peoples were attacked, colonized and

in

two cases almost completely wiped out by invaders. These peoples do not share the guilt of the invaders. They were the victims of invasion.

Jay Random
The point is that the invasion occurred, & the people who now occupy those territories are the beneficiaries of those invasions.

Ah, so the Finns benefitted from the Russian invasion? Silly of me to ever doubt that. But of course Finns no longer exist. Their lands are now occupied by Russians. I'll leave it to you to tell Tamim that he doesn't exist or that he is Russian.

In case your sarcas-o-meter is turned down too far: There have been many invasions and conquests in world history that did not involve colonization.

There is hardly any person now living on earth who can say that he is not descended from people who seized their land by force, or that he lives on land that has not been so seized.

This is the very argument that my long posts earlier in this thread already countered. People do not inherit guilt (though they do inherit liability, another matter I won't get into here), nor do populations remain culturally stable throughout time. Peoples, culture and nations _do_ evolve from their barbaric ancestors and _they are then no longer the same people_. French are not Franks. Germans are not Alemanni. Irish are not Celts. Italians are not Romans. Finns are not nomadic Ungaric tribes. Russians are not Vikings. Many peoples that evolved from their barbaric ancestors did not go on to colonize others.

No one has any grounds to criticize anyone else in this matter.

In any case, even if my own parents were the most bloodthirsty, genocidal, barbarian invaders, it would still not make the Israeli settlers any less evil. The fact that ohers have also committed crimes does not absolve a criminal of guilt.

Trade.