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Re: Republicanism still an ...

TradeSurplus
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SubjectRe: Republicanism still an offence in England? (wasRe: Queen mother (of
FromTradeSurplus
Date2002-04-16 17:51 (2002-04-16 17:51)
Message-ID<ILXu8.12840$3k1.3753178248@newssvr10.news.prodigy.com>
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Newsgroupsalt.fan.tolkien
FollowsJay Random
FollowupsJay Random (1h & 4m) > TradeSurplus
Russ (1h & 21m) > TradeSurplus
Russ (1h & 21m)
Jay Random wrote ..

Jay Random
TradeSurplus wrote:

TradeSurplus
Jay Random wrote .. You appear not to have understood my point at all. Regardless of whether

the

territory where I live has been colonized in the past, the people, the nation that developed there is not guilty of colonization, twenty generations later.

Jay Random
No, it is _you_ who are misunderstanding _my_ point. The territory is still one that has been _conquered_ (I said nothing about `colonization') in the past, & if you do not have some statute of limitations on reparations, then virtually every square centimetre of the earth's inhabitable surface is subject to claims by its former inhabitants.

I charitably assumed that you had merely misspoken. After all, the debate was centred around colonization, not conquest. Why would you want to start a red herring thread about conquest? As my original repsonse to Russ said, I believe that the Israelis were justified in keeping military bases active in the occupied territories. The great evil of the Israelis is colonization. That was the subject of this subthread.

Let me refresh your memory: I (TradeSurplus) said:

TradeSurplus
No I haven't. I've just described virtually all the great powers of the world because power is necessary for both colonization and genocide. Virtually all the great powers of the world have committed state

sanctioned

murder and attempted genocide. That doesn't make it right.

You (Jay Random) replied:

Jay Random
So have virtually all the small powers, & the powers that no longer exist. They lived by the sword, & when a nation came along that had more military power, they perished by the sword. Outside of the high Arctic & Antarctic, there is hardly a square inch of the Earth's land surface that has not changed hands by conquest. You yourself live on stolen land. Whom are you going to give it back to?

Let's analyze this a bit. I replied to Russ that most of the Great Powers of the world have committed colonization. You replied "So have virtually all the small powers". What way could this be read except as a direct reply to my claim on colonization? To what else could this refer? You then go on to say that nearly all land has changed hands by conquest. So you brought up the red herring of conquest in a passing remark that is part of a larger paragraph talking about colonization. You then say that I live on stolen land, implying that I am a colonizer or descendent of colonizers. If I was merely the victim of conquest then I wouldn't be living on stolen land, I would be living under foreign occupation. The most logical interpretation of this last sentence is also therefore that you are talking about colonization, which makes sense since the topic of the subthread is colonization.

Now that it appears that I was right and you were wrong wrt colonization, you claim that you were talking merely about conquest all along and that furthermore, any people that has been a victim of conquest serves to back up your point. You haven't come out and stated your position in this subthread but it would appear that you support the Israeli settlements and wish to use the "Everyone else did it so it's wrong of us to criticize Israel for it" argument.

TradeSurplus
As to telling you where I live; thus far on this thread you have

responded

to my posts with a strawman parody of my position and a misdirected

attack

on my posting record. Am I being overly suspicious to think that telling

you

where I live will be followed up with a pointless attack on my nation and culture?

Jay Random
You're being downright paranoid.

Well, let me add "moving the goalposts from colonization to conquest" to the list of your dubious debating tactics and maybe my paranoia becomes a bit more understandable.

I will, however, remind you of as many instances as I can of times when your bit of the earth's surface changed hands violently, & list the modern-day descendants of the former possessors who might claim that it should be returned to them for that reason.

You failed to do that with the three examples I gave, why should it be different for my country? What modern day people claim Ireland from the Irish? What modern day peoples claim Iceland from the Icelanders? What modern day peoples claim Finnland from the Finnish? What modern day people claim the Pequot reservation from the Pequot?

The fact is that neither Irish, Icelanders or Finnish colonized other countries. That they were victims of conquest and in some cases colonization is undoubtedly true. But Russ's original point is that almost every people and nation colonized other peoples. That point is false, which is what I was saying.

TradeSurplus
As it is, I gave you another example of a nation that is a popular topic

of

discussion on this group, namely Ireland. If you want more, consider Iceland, inhabited for over a millenium IIRC with no overseas colonies. Finland doesn't have very many colonies either unless I'm mistaken. And these three countries are in Europe, the home of overseas colonization. I recently vacationed in the US and came across the Pequot and

Narragansett

(sp?). I'm not very familiar with their history other than being

massacred a

few years after sharing the first thanksgiving dinner but I haven't heard that they colonized very many other peoples.

Jay Random
Again, colonization has nothing to do with the case. I was talking about _conquest_. Attend closely, please:

Colonizaztion is what the case is all about. That is the evil that Israel is currently committing. That is the evil that Russ claimed almost everyone is guilty of. That is the evil that I have shown many peoples and nations are not guilty of. Conquest is a red herring that you introduced all by yourself and that has no applicability to the current debate.

<snip history of oppression of peoples in my example>

The history you give shows how these peoples were attacked, colonized and in two cases almost completely wiped out by invaders. These peoples do not share the guilt of the invaders. They were the victims of invasion.

If you want to debate the topic under discussion, give examples of how these peoples colonized others. I await with bated breath the stories of Pequot and Narragansett colonization in particular.

Trade.

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