Don Brinn
AC wrote:

AC
On Wed, 03 Apr 2002 02:04:45 GMT, Louis Epstein <lepslog@PUF.FCC.NET> wrote:

Louis Epstein
Nathan <nathan2good@aol.com-nospam>wrote: :>(S)He who creates everything to :>put you in a universe where Tolkien's story will actually happen or is :>ongoing.

: In Tolkien's world Eru is God... Tolkien was a devoted Catholic and believed : in god... : I was wondering... does anyone believe that a god, or someone created the : universe?/

The existence of an Infinitely First Cause of the universe is an absolutely essential precondition for the existence of the universe,and is proven beyond rational(as opposed to atheist) doubt by the existence of anything whatsoever(even atheists).The NATURE of that Infinitely First Cause is something beings of the right intelligence level can argue endlessly over.

AC
That, my friend, is circular logic.

Don Brinn
I certainly disagree with his argument, but I don't see where it involves any circular logic. He assumes that an "Infinitely First Cause" is necessary for anything physical to exist. Clearly things do exist. Hence there must be an IFC. The logic of that argument seems fine to me, although I think that the assumption on which it is founded is unfounded.