Google| Subject | Re: Clobberin' Time... |
| From | Wes Hutchings |
| Date | 09/21/2001 08:33 (09/20/2001 23:33) |
| Message-ID | <B7D02D4B.600A%yyrkoon@cwnet.com> |
| Client | |
| Newsgroups | rec.arts.sf.starwars.misc |
| Follows | Paul \"Duggy\" Duggan |
| Followups | Paul \"Duggy\" Duggan (54m) |
Paul \"Duggy\" Duggan
From: "Paul \"Duggy\" Duggan" <jc122739@jcu.edu.au> Organization: University of Queensland Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.starwars.misc Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 15:08:39 +1000 Subject: Re: Clobberin' Time...
On Wed, 19 Sep 2001, Wes Hutchings wrote:
That still paints you as a hypocrite because you blame the US for not helping them. The US is still the number one supplier of humanitarian relief to Afghanistan. Think on that.Paul \"Duggy\" DugganWe are closer, but we are not a nearer neighbour.Wes Hutchings
Dazzle me with the distinction that doesn't make you a hypocrite.
Point being that we are not a neighbour of Afghanistan, and it wasn't about distance or that shit, it was actually about the fact that not everyone in Afghanistan wants to be there - and I'm sure those people don't want to be targeted from something a government they wish to flee is doing.
So you just gave them directions before kicking them out of your country. That's what humanity is all about.Wes HutchingsPaul \"Duggy\" Duggan
That they stopped at the some places along the way is obvious as they SAILED there and they're a LANDLOCKED nation. Please tell me you have an actual point.
My point is they were trying to get to America.
You most certainly did. I'll ask again, do you suffer from a short term memory problem? Is your name Lenny?Wes HutchingsPaul \"Duggy\" Duggan
Why do I have to tell you the same things over and over again? That's right, because you're not paying attention or you get it wrong the first few times. We JUST covered this above, it is because your nation turned out refugees and in the same breath you criticize the US for not doing what your nation refused to do.
I didn't.
That was not the topic at all.Not initially.
Whether the US takes refugees or not is not an issue.You stated we should have helped them in the same breath you stated your nation refused them help when they were at your doorstep. That makes your position hypocritical.
You were the person who claimed there is no distinction between acts of violence. I'm not terribly concerned with your opinion of me.Wes HutchingsPaul \"Duggy\" Duggan
If you like I can pull up the old post concerning the spamming response debate, in which you choose what amounts to violent action and here today you claim there is no distinction in violent actions.
If you continue to compare the deaths of innocents to you having to delete extra posts I will lose every ounce of respect for you as a human being.
*Nothing*... *Nothing* I have seen on this newsgroup "amounts to" the same thing as the lose of a single human life.I never said it did. I stated you have made it quite clear you see no distinction between levels of violence, to you, they are all the same.
Point?Paul \"Duggy\" DugganI am unaware of your actual position, but I know what I've been replying to that you've written.Wes Hutchings
No, because if you were doing that, you'd KNOW my actual position or for that matter you'd know what I meant.
I looked back, and as far as I can tell, you replied to my posts before I replied to yours.
Since my posts were stating a wish that the US would not move first to violence, your replies either agreed - and so we've been agreeing all this time - or disagreed - which is what I believed you thought violence was the best action.The problem there of course is that until yesterday you did not phrase your posts as what you wished the US would not do. You were criticizing the US and myself for actions not yet taken as if they were fact.
Either you beleive that or not. Which is it?Neither, this is another example of you changing positions mid stream. have you seen Memento? Do you recall 5 minutes ago?
My position is neither of the above. Let me know if you understand my position or not please.
Yes, you did.Wes HutchingsPaul \"Duggy\" Duggan
You stated we should have helped the refugees that your country gave the boot.
Never did.
Name ONE please. Show some form of documentation.Paul \"Duggy\" DugganThe US shouldn't help everyone. In fact they're been helping too many people in the wrong ways.Wes Hutchings
Hindsight is 20/20, if you pull your head out of your ass, then it'll get a little clearer.
Yes. And the fact that this has been bought up *before* America did a lot of it's stupid moves, suggests that the 20/20 hindsight should include *listening to people* once in a while.
You'll get used to it. Get yourself some notepads and write everything down. You need a system.Paul \"Duggy\" DugganI admit it, and hate my country for it.Wes Hutchings
Thus calling me and my nation responsible while you refused to help people at your doorstep.
Huh?
No, this is a new point. The point you made earlier involved criticizing the US for either doing something or not doing enough. In the same breath as you used to state your nation ignored refugees on your doorstep.Wes HutchingsPaul \"Duggy\" Duggan
Do you know how many tens of millions the US has given Afghanistan this year in food aid?
No. Food aid won't help political refugees anyway. Which is the point of the discussion.
You did say it, checks the Facts: tattoos on your left leg.Wes HutchingsPaul \"Duggy\" Duggan
You are truly dense. You're criticizing the US and me for not doing something you admit your nation refused to do.
I see. I'm a hypocrit because you think I said something I didn't.
So let me make sure I understand you perfectly. 1. You don't feel that feeding starving people counts as support. 2. You think we should go in and oust the government of Afghanistan, which you KNOW would be violent and thus cause a great deal in terms of lost life. 3. At the same time you stand against the US going into Afghanistan to remove or kill a mass murderer. 4. We are currently asking the government to come clean rather than go in there and kill people, which is what you WANT us to do.Wes HutchingsPaul \"Duggy\" Duggan
All the while forgetting we in fact have aided them.
"We don't like the government" "Here's some food" "Our supports someone who possibly killed Americans" "We may have to declare war on your country."
Let's see you untie that little mental not Hypocrite Boy.
That's a good example. Keep doing that, throw in a D'uh every now and again.Wes HutchingsPaul \"Duggy\" Duggan
I'm not. Feel free to make an actual point. To date you're showing your ignorance and refusal to recognize what is said to you point blank.
Huh?
Do you know the difference between ACTION and REACTION? I don't think you do.Paul \"Duggy\" DugganHey, this bin Laden guy America hasn't done anything against... didn't he live in a house that exploded? Fortunately for him he wasn't there...Wes Hutchings
Which was in rettalliation for no less than 2 attacks aaainst military forces.
"We've done nothing for decades"
You did something. Now the same person is (possibly) responsible for a *bigger* attack on Americans.
This is what I mean by making the problem worse.But you wanted the US to go in and overthrow the government instead of sending humanitarian relief before. keep up Sparky.
If you want to lie and claim that you have done nothing to esculate the problem, not then admit that you have used a violent military responce recently - and unsuccessfully - which may have increased the problem.When you call me a liar fuckwit, supply evidence. got to dictionary.com and look up the words ACTION and REACTION.
Then ask yourself why terrorists living in the US for a DECADE on a project that was started 2 YEARS ago, would have anything at all to do with the escalation you're discussing.
Go ahead Sparky, give it a shot. Check your notes.
Then why do you endorse it above when it is to be used in defense of the Afghanees being subjugated?Paul \"Duggy\" DugganI'm sure America didn't have anything to do with that.Wes Hutchings
I'm sure your comprehension makes it impossible to distinguish between attack and defense.
That's the point I'm trying to make.
He attacks military targets. You defend by attacking him. He attacks civillian targets.
I'm saying that defense by military attack is a stupid move.
It makes things worse.Doing nothing makes things worse. You're discussing people who have spent time getting used to having their way.
Thank you for citing cases.Thank you for missing the point.
No.Paul \"Duggy\" DugganLie all you want, but the truth is America *has* been doing stuff.Wes Hutchings
Show the lie, do it right fucking now.
Quoting you:Paul \"Duggy\" DugganWes Hutchings
We've done nothing for decades.
You admit that you have done something.
And don't claim that defense doesn't count, because esculation was being discussed not attack or defense.Defense does not count. An ACTION is different from a REACTION. If a bee stings you and you swat at the sting, did you cause the events to occur?
Only as long as they can.Wes HutchingsPaul \"Duggy\" Duggan
I see retaliations against acts of terror.
Many see the terrorist attacks as retaliation for acts of terror in many other countries.
Attacks on these people will be seen by them as acts of terror, and they will retaliate.
I'm talking about 20 fucking years you dumb shit.Wes Hutchings
I see them carried out by people we helped train to stand against their enemies. I see that once they managed to get that enemy out of their land we continued to help that country. I see that country stabbing us in the back.Which part is giving you trouble?Paul \"Duggy\" Duggan
The part where you focus on a tiny little part of the picture.
Tell a glowing story of how great America is and how it has done no wrong and use that as a justification of violence.Bullshit, I said no such thing. I have stated the good with the bad and you fucking know it. Pull your head out of your ass and stick with the facts.
That is exactly the sort of thing that bin Laden does. Ignores part of the story, plays up the others. Justifying the violence and convincing other to carry it out.Thanks for comparing the US to Bin Laden. When does your ambassadorship expire you ignorant fucking hick?
He is wrong, and if you truely believe what you said so are you.How the fuck would you know? You STILL don't know what's going on.
No, I'm pointing out you're an idiot, leave it to you to go off on another tangent.Wes HutchingsPaul \"Duggy\" Duggan
Tell you what dumbass. Go take a look at picks of NY city before and after 9-11-01.
Anger. Fear. Hatred.
These are not tools for rational decission making.How would you know? You don't even know what's being discussed and you're forgetting what I've said, misremembering and as a bonus contradicting yourself.
More telling pictures are not the pictures of the city.Ignorance is bliss then, is that you're approach?
A city is nothing.Go to NY and say that to anyone on the street.
The pictures that said the most to me were the pictures that crying people were carrying around the streets.All the heartless Americans who just want to kill people? Or are these new people you've decided to add in as it's convenient to your current rambling point?
New Yorkers looking for loved ones - when you know most - if not all are going to be... I was going to say disappointed... by that isn't a strong enough word.Cite numbers or fuck off.
And you know what stuck in my mind. People in other countries doing the exact same thing. Sometimes after natural disasters. Sometimes terrorist attacks. Sometimes military action.
It never seemed real then. There were subtitles or a v.o. saying what they were saying, it seemed remote, reading the words, or hearing the translation wasn't the same has hearing the real voice.
I knoew nothing about the cities touched before. Probably never seen "before" pictures. Often never heard of or never been able to pronouce the city's name. I'll admit I've never been to NY, or America. But 75% of our TV is American TV. I watch Letterman, Friends, Sex In The City, Seinfeld... it seems more real than these other places.
And America has more cameras. We saw everything. We hardly ever get that with the other things.
But the other things happen. They are real. People die everyday.
And a hell of a lot of these people are killed with American supplied weapons and by American supported countries.
The people with the photos want to know why they have lost people. Why America would do that to them. Some want revenge.Name the actions.
In NY the same thing happens. People with photos want to know why. Some want revenge.At some point it WILL stop. Until this incident no one cared enough to try and stop it. NO ONE. Not Australia, not Israel, Not India, Not England, no one. Now that someone does care enough to want to stop it and has rallied SUPPORT from the WORLD, you want us to stop. You're an idiot. It won't stop because we let them have their way. It will stop because someone makes the cost too high for them to pay.
I'm not saying that you shouldn't want revenge. That it's not natural to want to hurt others as you've been hurt.
But it won't stop. Not by continuing the cycle. Not by creating more people with photos. Not by creating more dead.
"Always with you it can not be done..."Wes HutchingsPaul \"Duggy\" Duggan
Tell me there is no justification for the US trying to stop that.
It won't stop it.
We're ending it.Wes HutchingsPaul \"Duggy\" Duggan
Show it. Do so completely. No more of your half assed accusations. Back it up or fuck off.
I never said that what was done to America was right. I clearly stated it that it was wrong. Very wrong.
I just said to continue the cycle is just as wrong.
That the people who did this felt just as justified as you do now.They'd better learn to feel another way.
Answer the question.Paul \"Duggy\" DugganStupid violent people see that as a reason to fight back. People will get killed. Families will lose loved ones. Friends will lose friends.Wes Hutchings
The difference is do you want us to commit suicide or not? Pick one.
There are many ways to commit suicide. Standing in the line of fire shooting back is one of them.
Bullshit, there is no REASON for what they're doing, not ONE. There is a reason for it to stop. They won't stop on their own.Paul \"Duggy\" DugganMore and more angry people will see America as the enemy. Stupid violent ones will attack American targets.Wes Hutchings
Which they've already been doing.
Exactly. For the reasons stated.
No, I don't think putting an end to it is making things worse, apparently you only have one option in your head, which is ironic.Wes HutchingsPaul \"Duggy\" Duggan
You seem to think Suicide is the answer.
You seem to think that making things worse is.
Because you picked this cause.Wes HutchingsPaul \"Duggy\" Duggan
If you want that option, then go for it. Walk into Afghanistan singing Give Peace a Chance.
Why walk into Afghanistan?
It isn't my country.It's not ours either, but you earlier complaned we didn't help them overthrow their corrupt government, so here's another chance for you to be a hypocrite.
It is someone elses. Why do I have to be involved?Why does the US? We CHOOSE to involve ourselves, almost exclusively when asked.
I don't. Unless I make myself part of it. Much like the US has done.Make up your mind, have we helped Afghanistan or not. You can't have it both ways.
Actually they do. You should study up[ on criminology in your spare time.Paul \"Duggy\" DugganSerial killers and others like that? What have they got to do with it.Wes Hutchings
Show the distinction between them and those who stole an aircraft to kill themselves and everyone on board.
Serial killers don't do it for revenge.
No, you have not, not even once, you just stated, they think they're justified.Paul \"Duggy\" DugganThe terrorists that we are discussing have a cause, a reason, a justification.Wes Hutchings
Show it.
I have.
I don't agree with it. But then I don't agree with people using the Twin Towers as a justification for retaliation.There you go again, stating the US position sans evidence. I suggest you listen to Bush's speech to congress.
I accept neither, and see people (from either side) who only accept one as being hypocritical.You don't get that option. You see you weren't attacked. You're calling the US hypocritical for actions it has not taken to stop people who destroyed a cities skyline and killed in excess of 6000 people. Get facts.
You accept their ACTION as a REASON. There is no REASON which justifies what they did. There is no REASON for them to even have done it.Paul \"Duggy\" DugganWhether it be right or wrong it's still for a reason.Wes Hutchings
Hypocrite to the core.
No. I acknowledge that they have a "reason" that they think "justifies" their action.
I don't accept it.
That is not hypocritical.
You have repeatedly stated they were justified because of past acts, that they are only doing this because we retalliated and that it is the US which is continuing this.Wes HutchingsPaul \"Duggy\" Duggan
It's alright for them to kill for their reasons, but not for us to put and to it for our reasons.
I never said that.
In fact I repeatedly said the opposite.You've said a lot of opposites, about a great many things.
I, quite frankly want you to appologise for saying that.No and fuck you.
Now.
Yes.Paul \"Duggy\" DugganWes HutchingsWes HutchingsPaul \"Duggy\" Duggan
We're higher on the food chain.
Gee, with thinking like that it makes it hard to see why is America painted as a tyrant in the countries of it's enemies and cultural imperialists in the countries of it's friends.
And the hypocrite strikes again.
No.
You made what I hope was a stupidly exagerated comment - which actually fits how many view your country. I remarked that that sort of thing only helps people see it that way. Where is the hypocracy?Because you paint the US and myself in that light as it suits you, then back off as you get caught in your latest dumb ass statement.
But the US is supposed to NOT go after terrorists in the same post in which you state we were supposed to go in and help overthrow their government because us feeding them was not REALLY us helping them.Wes HutchingsPaul \"Duggy\" Duggan
Give the reason your nation denied the refugees.
Because they didn't "go through the proper channels" which means they didn't wait in Pakistan to be processed, they instead went purchased plane tickets to Indonesia, then paid to be illegally taken to America, but were in the process of being taken to Australia instead.
Once again, I disagree with my country's stand.
So which will it be? Will they stay there and die or do you think freeing them is justified? The US has missionairies there as well and Bush demanded their release and the release of all those being held on religus grounds and the turning over the entire terrorist network and be granted inspection rights to make sure the camps were never operated as such again. The demand was stated as non-negotiable.Wes HutchingsPaul \"Duggy\" Duggan
Note ours still gives their country humanitarian aid.
So does ours... or perhaps they stopped a month ago when Australian nationals were arrested and possibly sentenced to death for preaching Christianity.
Now what? let's hear you state the US's position as yet again being in some way foul. I fucking dare you.
Yes.Wes HutchingsPaul \"Duggy\" Duggan
Note they kill us for kicks.
No.
Unless you are once again changing the object without notification "they" is "Afghanistan". The only thing Afghanistan has been shown to have done is to hide the possible "mastermind" behind the attack.Who's in power?
You are confusing a person in the country with the country and the population. Again.No, I am not, you are needlessly sticking to a perception which you hope supports your case, rather than seeing the obvious.
And it wasn't "for kicks".Really? Explain why the people who plan these missions never seem to go on them.
Like? Please save yourself time and just copy from the list of stated US actions on this matter.Wes HutchingsPaul \"Duggy\" Duggan
We kill to stop one group from indiscriminately killing another. You apparently vote for suicide.
No. I'm saying to stop the terrorists through non-violent means.
It well stop this thing esculating into another form of suicide.Suicide is sitting and doing nothing.
You have repeatedly stated it as an action the US was going to take and you have ignored statements concerning what actions the US is actually taking.Paul \"Duggy\" DugganI never claimed that not violent methods were wrong.Wes Hutchings
No, you claimed the US knew no other way and was going to use only violence.
No, I claimed that violence was not the answer. I never made any claim about it being the only option open the the US.
Since you don't know how much we're using now, how could you possibly claim it's not enough? That's right you can't. You'll just keep running your mouth with your brain in neutral.Paul \"Duggy\" DugganBy advising caution?Wes Hutchings
No by not realizing we're using caution.
You should be using more.
Yes, I'll be happy to ram the posts back down your throat.Paul \"Duggy\" DugganI'm arguing against certain causes of action. If they don't happen I'm happy. If they were never planned by the US government I'm even happier. But they have been suggested, and I disagree with themWes Hutchings
You are not stating your objections against possible actions, you are stating them against what you consider defined wrongs that WILL happen because the US knows no other way.
No.
Which was in RETALLIATION for TWO terrorist attacks against MILITARY targets, so we hit where he 'was' which was a military target as it was attacking the source of the problem.Paul \"Duggy\" DugganYou ignore the fact that America has done itWes Hutchings
Supply a fucking noun. Are you discussing the past? Specify a fucking event then dipshit.
The last attack on bin Laden.
Then perhaps you or they could watch a fucking TV news program once in awhile because Bush and his cabinet have been explaining it for 9 fucking days so far.Paul \"Duggy\" DugganDeploying the military in something called "Infinite Justice" doesn't sound non-violent.Wes Hutchings
Perhaps the nation down under wants to commit suicide. I doubt it. The US has no such policy.
Australia doesn't. Which is why our military leaders are now saying that while they support the PMs offer of support, they'd like to know what that means, and would like to think that the US wasn't going over-react.
They don't want us to commit suicide by escualting things.Australia as cautious, now there's a novel idea.
wes
--- - Dug. --- "May you live in interesting times." ---
09/11/2001-
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