James W. King
Wes Hutchings: "Since the children the Jedi have 'taken' to date have

be given voluntarily and have not been placed in a breeding program and in

only number to 10k in a entire galaxy, your point is again shit."

C'Pi
James King: "Bogus issue and false parallel. I have never compared the

James W. King
Jedi's appropriation of young children from their parents to the other

mill' breeding programs of the Leibensborn program anyway. And I defy you

to www.google.com/groups and find statements to that effect supposedly

by myself. *I absolutely defy you to do so.* "As to the number 10,000 for the number of Jedi in Faraway Galaxy at

time of the Prequels, I do not include Padewans in that number because

not full-fledged Jedi. We could also suppose that some elderly Jedi

too, and wouldn't be counted in that number because they're no longer

For if the Jedi are to be anything remotely like a thin blue line of

a galaxy teaming with trillions of inhabitants, the number 10,000 ought to apply only to those full-fledged, still-active Jedi and not include

and retired (no-longer-active) Jedi. "But your argument of numbers (that there are only some 10,000 Jedi in

galaxy in the Prequel-Trilogy period) is beside the point. Thus far, the

children taken away from their families haven't yet been portrayed as

any regular or sporadic contact with their birth parents or families --

*that's* yet another compelling factor that puts me off altogether,

that similarity makes its comparison to the occupied-territory-child-appropriation division of the Leibensborn program

the more striking, since those children taken by the Nazis from their

were never meant to see their birth families again, either. So, it matters

how many children the Jedi took away from their families, for even if they

away only one child under such birth-family-disassociative conditions, that's already one child too many."

C'Pi
C'Pi (<A HREF="mailto:jas221@yahoo.com">jas221@yahoo.com</A>): "False

James W. King
It has yet to be shown that even one child has been taken away and disassociated from its family."

James King: "Bogus! I note that you've not cited one fact to the

from any Star Wars book. We already know that parents are at least

not also legally, obligated to surrender their Force-capacity-qualifying children to the Jedi Temple -- if parents indeed have any say in the

C'Pi: "Which just as easily parallels the Buddhist model I presented."

Are you actually saying that parents are morally obligated to give up

their children to Buddhist temples?

C'Pi: "Qui-Qon left the choice up to Shmi. There was no indication that

would have taken the child. Despite the fact that he considered him the

one. Something that would have given him a strong incentive to take Anakin regardless of what his mother said. If the Jedi were in the habit of

children regardless of the parents wishes, why did Qui-Qon act as if the

did have a choice?"

1. As protectors of *the Republic,* the Jedi had some unilateral

and control there. Tatooine in Episode One was NOT a member of the

was a Hutt world where Jedi had no real influence over things, especially

Hutts were immune to Jedi mind-control techniques.

2. It might have been more compelling if Shmi had feared the notion

handing Anakin over to Qui-Gon and actually resisted, if not refused, to

him to take Anakin with him. After all, the very publum and vanilla

"slavery" presented in Episode One on Tatooine could not have been

to some slaves, especially given the rather comfy accommodations of their "hovels."

3. If Shmi had lived on a Republic world, it remains to be seen as to whether she would have much, if any, say in the matter.

James King: "But none of those children in any of the books that I've

thus far has had any sort of homecoming with their birth families much

holo-letter from home.

C'Pi: "Which would also parallel children going into Buddhist monasteries

it is shown that is the case."

Buddhist children are NOT required to disassociate themselves entirely

their birth families.

C'Pi: "I haven't read any books that take place before TPM, so I can't comment. However if it is true that Owen is Obi-Wan's brother then that

there is contact with family."

And yet, that contact with his brother may not come about until some emergency situation arises which forces Obi-Wan to go home for a

out-of-the-ordinary reason (like Obi-Wan's anticipated flight with baby

Skywalker supposedly at the end of Episode III).

C'Pi: "Also in later books the new Jedi have contact with their family."

The later books take place after the end of Episode VI though, some 30

after the end of Episode III.

C'Pi
"In fact you have yet to show any evidence that Jedi training is

James W. King
all reminiscent of the Nazi Leibensborn program, other than that both

sought children out."

James King: "The issue does not concern 'Jedi training' per se. The issue

its recruitment policy, namely the obligatory conscription of Force-capacity-qualifying children into the Jedi Temple."

__________________________________________

C'Pi
"It has not been shown that children have ever been taken from

James W. King
disassociated from their family."

James King: "On the contrary, it's been prior established that such is

case."

C'Pi: "No, it hasn't. Cite a source."

I'll have to go back and look for that roleplaying game resource book.

only came across that information in passing while looking up another

altogether.

James King: "Notably, you didn't cite any episodes from any Star Wars

comic wherein a Jedi Padewan received a holo-letter from home much less

go home to visit his birth parents."

C'Pi: "Again, you have not provided evidence that they are denied contact

their family. Cite a book in which a padawan or his\her family were denied

request to see each other."

False issue. The issue is that thus far, familial ties between a

his/her birth family has yet been presented in any of the Prequel-Trilogy-period books

C'Pi: "And again even if they were, it would parallel the practice of

children in monasteries better than the Nazi Leibensborn program."

Who are you insinuating is doing the placing of those children in

monesteries though -- the parents or the monks?

James King: "On the whole, though, if Lucas is going to defend this Jedi practice in creative terms, I believe it would be immensely helpful to

to explain it in compelling detail and indeed, *if* the practice is not coercive, then some book in the future should include such an establishing scene as the parents of a young Force-capacity-qualifying child surrender

child to the Jedi Temple. Such a scene would provide a touchstone from

better relate to the young Jedi Padewan character as he/she matures and progresses in his/her Jedi training."

C'Pi: "Why don't you write the story idea and submit it to the publisher

Star Wars books. For you it is a concern. For the authors who have already written SW books, it has not been."

On the contrary, we don't know for sure if such is the case at all.

we know, a writer might well have already proposed such a storyline to

Books only to get a memo from Lucasfilm explaining that such storylines in which a prior-established or new Padewan character has contacts, letters

reunions with his/her birth parents and family aren't allowed.

Moreover, I can't abide that odious notion about midiclorians, which

my sensibilities altogether. As recently clarified by Lucas himself as

more with predeterminative flesh-and-blood genetics than any

matters of the spirit, the midiclorian stuff is the singlemost

notion advanced under the guise of heroism since anti-Semitic composer

Wagner wrote his "Rings of the Nibelung" quartet of operas with a

"Deutchland Uber Alles" subtext and intent (to rouse the spirit of

in the German people to seek their ultimate destiny as the masters of the entire world).

(And quite coincidentally -- or perhaps not so coincidentally --

recently provided stage special effects work for the San Francisco

of those very Wagner operas.)

C'Pi
"It is interesting, and an insight into you, that you continue to

James W. King
to link this movie plot with Nazism when other and better parallels exist.

have to look no further than children being placed in Tibetan or Thai

monasteries or the Shaolin monastery in China to receive training and conditioning to be monks. Something they will then be for the rest of

life. This is a much more analogous to the Jedi, than a group of people

had a forced adoption program."

James King: "On the contrary, I have seen such a news program about that

who was to become the new Dalia Llama under the express permission of

which now dominates Tibet. (The real Dalai Llama is in exile.) However,

that child was not prevented from contacting and receiving visits from his birth parents."

C'Pi: "Something you have not cited a source for yet. In which book was a family denied a visit to their child?"

Again, that's just it: There have yet to be any such depicted

between Padewans and their birth families, not even though holo-letters

less handwritten ones.

James King: "Because of his exalted status as the new Dalai Llama, his

was limited though, especially since his becoming Dalai Llama was under

aegis of China which hopes to make him their puppet of sorts."

C'Pi: "I wasn't considering the Dalai Lama, although it is not a bad

I was thinking more along the lines of all the common children that are

monasteries and then have no contact with their families again."

Again, who are you claiming is making the decision when it comes to

children entering Buddhist monesteries?

James King: "What's more, the Buddhist angle would not be a satisfying comparison either, since Nazi occult beliefs state that their ancient

ancestors were the surviving overlords of Atlantis who fled and migrated

high ground in the Himalayas where *they* founded Buddhism. During the

Heinrich Himmler's own Occult Bureau sent several anthrolopological

to Tibet to investigate and substantiate the supposed origins of the

German race. They went there looking to study an obscure tribe of native Tibetans still living there who didn't look all that Asian in appearance. Apparently, the Nazis felt that those particular native Tibetans were themselves the descendants of their own ancestors, the alleged 'first

found a example of this Nazi occult belief about the origins of Buddhism

1940s autobiography of a Dutch reporter who tells about some of the people

met during his career, including the unusual expatriate Brit character

in the heyday of both Wiemar and Nazi Germany who mysteriously popped up

and them to relate his adventures about circulating among the seats of

Europe, Asia and the Middle East."

C'Pi
Excerpt from pages 122-124 from the non-fiction book entitled "Days of

James W. King
Years: 1903-1938" by Dutch reporter Pierre van Paassen (1939, Garden City Publishing Company, New York), an autobiography of his years as a student

newspaper reporter in Europe and the Middle East:

One of the strangest figures to come to The World newspaper's office

Paris in the late '20s through the mid' 30s, where there was a daily flow

visitors, was Ignace Trebitsch-Lincoln. Said to be a son of Jewish

Trebitsch, when I knew him, had been a Catholic priest in Vienna, an

clergyman in London, a Member of the Parliament in Westminister [in

and was said to have been a secret agent for Germany in the USA and Canada during World War I. He had been secretary to the USSR's Leon Trotsky,

adviser to one of the Chinese governments and had some title at the court

Afghanistan. He always knew --- sometimes months in advance -- what was

to happen, but he never revealed his sources. This gave him an air of

although there was nothing fundementally mysterious about him.

He was a restless soul, the Wandering Jew par excellence, who vainly

for peace of mind in all the highways and byways of life. Personal success

the least of his concerns. He could have carved a brilliant career in half

dozen professions, and had more than once started out, only to break off suddenly, cut all his attachments and connections, and turn up on another

altogether. He was a marvelous writer, but he seldom had the patience to

down long enough to compose an article. He blew in, made some startling announcement that left everybody flabbergasted, and went out again. Once (coming from Italy, I think) he brought the news that the French

decided to occupy the Ruhr Valley. The Ruhr was occupied four months

In 1929, he predicted Hitler's advent to power in the spring of

four years before it actually happened. Everybody had just smiled in

at that prophecy when he first made it back in 1929.

He disappeared for long periods, but whenever he came back, the story

experiences sounded more incredible.

Once he dropped in from India and began sending frantic telegrams to

George in London, asking the former British Premier to intercede with authorities there for a landing permit to enable him [Trebitsch] to fly to England. His only son, found guilty of murder, had been sentenced to die

gallows [by hanging]. Trebitsch had rushed all the way from Indo-China to

a last word with his boy. Britain had deprived Trebitsch of his

his pro-German activities during World War I. When Lloyd George did not

Trebitsch tried every one of his former parliamentary colleagues, all to

avail.

I sat with him there in Paris, waiting for the dawn, early on the

when his son would be hanged. When the first streaks of light appeared in

east, the tension became unbearable. He rushed outside and clenched his

at the rising sun. The blood streamed from his mouth and nostrils

caused by his rising blood pressure]. Then he sat slumped over on the curb

the street, moaning like a wounded animal. When he had recovered his

the boy over in England was dead.

Thereafter, it was in 1930, Trebitsch disappeared. In the summer of

he was back, but this time he was waring the yellow robe of a Buddhist

noticed him at the wicket in the Gare du Nord buying a ticket for Berlin.

"I see," I said to him, "that you have gone back to the yarmakle,"

to his tight-fitting skullcap of a type that his Jewish ancestors must

worn in Hungary.

"I announce to you," replied Trebitsch gravely, "the doctrine that is glorious in the beginning, glorious in the middle, and glorious in the

the Gospel of Our Lord Buddha."

Trebitsch said he was on his way to see the Fuhrer [Adolf Hitler] and

leaders of the neo-pagan movement in the Third Reich [Nazi Germany]. "Buddhism," he explained, "is purely Aryan religion, and if the German

want to have done with that Jewish cult known as 'Christianity,' ...."

I wished him the best of luck in his meeting with Hitler but never

how he fared. Before boarding the train, he gave me his new Chinese name

the address of the monastery in Ceylon of which he was the abbot. "If you

want to say goodbye to all this," Trebitsch said with a broad sweep of his yellow sleeve,"come and see me and I'll make a monk out of you."

________________________________________

C'Pi: "False issue. For any of this to be relevant you would have to show

Lucas drew the parallel between Jedi and Buddhist training of children

of Nazi occult theories of Buddhism, or at the very least show that the

Liebensborn program was on Buddhist practices. Not even you could be so

On the contrary, the fact speaks for itself that George Lucas has

demonstrated his familiarity with Nazi occult ideology; therefore, it is

beyond the realm of consideration that he might have been inspired or influenced by the occult-mythical connection between Buddhism and Nazi

ideology. Moreover, it's damning enough as it is that Lucas' recent clarification of the midiclorian issue has made it even MORE shockingly identical in both comparative context and content to the Nazi occult

about the magical/psychic properties of "Aryan" blood.

C'Pi: "Since these parallels are so obvious and a much better fit to the movie, then I am left with little choice but to think that your

interest and nostalgia for WW II and Nazi Germany have clouded your

perceive things clearly."

James King: "Since you've failed to offer one iota of rebuttal of those

as even a token attempt to undermine their merits, I am not edified by

disingenuous conclusions. For only if you can credibly discredit in

terms the merits of the exact arguments I offered, you're only whining disbelief. Moreover, major aspects of Lucas' Star Wars trilogy have

been cited in no uncertain terms as having been influenced by Nazi

those particular citations were approved for publication by none other

Lucas himself."

C'Pi
Excerpt from Chapter Two, "The Makings of Modern Myth: Cultural &

James W. King
Influences" from "Star Wars: The Magic of Myth," the companion volume to

Star Wars exhibition at the National Air & Space Museum of the Smithsonian Institution, by Mary Henderson (1997, Bantam-Spectra Books):

World War II

The trilogy's Galactic Empire was also influenced by real-life

concerns, capturing a cross section of images and attitudes from the

surrounding its creation. Lucas was born at the end of World War II and

in its aftermath. The Nazi concentration camps revealed all too clearly

humans could inflict the worst possible horror upon other humans, and the

of the atom bomb demonstrated that we could wipe ourselves out without any

from space invaders.

In Star Wars, the Death Star can be viewed as the ultimate nuclear

and the look of the Imperial Army is clearly influenced by the Nazis.

There are other references to Germany and World War II in Star Wars

beyond the costuming. Lucas called one group of Imperial soldiers the "stormtroopers" -- this was also the name given Adolf Hitler's personal bodyguards. Out of this group, Hitler created the elite black-coated Schutzstaffel (protection squad), or SS. The SS became "a state within a state," taking the police function and military and civilian intelligence

forming such feared groups as the Gestapo -- the "Death's Head Battalion"

charge of the concentration camps -- as well as a number of military

They were all loyal to Hitler himself rather than to the party or

and they struck terror throughout occupied Europe.

There is something of the SS in Vader, with his all-black robes and

and his obsessive obedience to the Emperor. As for the Emperor himself,

prologue to the novelization of the first film, "Star Wars: From the

of Luke Skywalker," tells us that Senator Palpatine was elected president

the Republic and then declared himself emperor, exterminating his

This brief summary matches Hitler's story; from the leadership of the

Nazi Party, he got himself elected chancellor of Germany, then vaulted

presidency, which he turned into a dictatorship, declaring himself the "F?hrer," or supreme leader. Hitler then shut himself away from any real contact with the people; he was surrounded instead by his personal

who were pledged to defend him to the death. The Emperor, too, has

himself, giving audience only to a few of the select, always protected by

Red Guards.

Hitler officially ended the German Republic by passing an act that

absolute rule. Early on in Star Wars, Grand Moff Tarkin informs the other officers that the Emperor has permanently dissolved the Imperial Senate

that the last remnants of the Old Republic have been swept away. . . .

Even more important than the political structure, however, is the atmosphere of rigid control and dehumanization that characterizes Star

Empire. This ambiance seems chillingly reminiscent of the fascism of

Nazi Germany.

__________________________________________

C'Pi: "What this shows is that Lucas based elements of his story on the dominating event of the 20th century and incorporated nothing more than

knowledge and nothing to do with the Nazi occult. Lucas is not the first

done this and he certainly won't be the last. There must be hundreds of

out there that do the same thing."

Only "Star Wars: The Magic of Myth" author Mary Henderson was not

about just basic storyline elements. She was also talking about the Nazi stylistic motif in the artistic designs for costumes, helmets, set pieces

other aesthetic factors. The unique thing about those stylistic touches is

it's somehow both subtle and not-so-subtle at the same time. There's even

World War II Imperial Japanese touches in the design of the caps worn by

of the Death Star commanders and officers as well.

James King: "What's more, George Lucas conceived the basic storylines for

Indiana Jones movies, two of which are filled with Nazis and demonstrate

familiarity with Nazi occult ideology."

C'Pi: "And does his making of Star Wars demonstrate his knowledge

and hyper drive?"

False issue. Those are elements which do not contribute to the

and mythical themes of storytelling anyway.

One does not have to explain the technicalities of how to make a clone in a science fantasy as Star Wars.

one can do so is explanation enough; but one certainly does have to

*why* a character(s) would want to create clones in the first place in

storyline.

*However,* if you're bound and determined to have a protagonist

explain the process anyway, it had better make sense and not invoke

in the viewers.

C'Pi: "You have yet to cite a source that showed Lucas had knowledge of

nazi occult before he made Star Wars and that it wasn't something he

for the making of Indiana Jones? Or cite a source that he even did

it?"

George Lucas did not introduce this midiclorian bunk until Episode

long after he had written the Indiana Jones movies. The original trilogy

not contain any concepts that were evocative of Nazi-occult beliefs.

And it was also not until Episode One that Lucas broke his prior policy of not

Terran-ethnic accents to the voices of ignoble and villainous space-alien characters as well.

C'Pi: "If not then I may to write a treatise on how Lucas based most of

story elements for Star Wars on Buddhism belief and mythology. I'm sure I

write a much more compelling argument than you so far have presented on

Lucas-nazi occult connection over the past year. Of course just like all

arguments you have presented, it would be a load of crap, too."

I didn't create the crap that constitutes the content of Nazi occult ideology, nor did I create concepts evocative of it but with a more

spin, either, in my writing of fiction.

*Although,* there are ways to take such twisted philosophies and turn them on their ear so as to expose the

behind them, such as through dark satire balanced with drama.

In Episode One, though, Lucas does the opposite: He appears to embrace

repugnant notion of the Nazi occult beliefs of the magical properties of "Aryan" German blood and tries to give it a positive spin by endowing

with beliefs along the same lines. And that's absolutely reprehensible.

James King: "The Nazis and Nazi-occult themes are also major elements in

of the other Indiana Jones-related games, books and comics, too -- all

approved by Lucas himself."

C'Pi: "Is Indiana Jones the only story you've seen nazis in? What's

about Indiana Jones that separates it from all the other movies that have Nazis?"

False issue. I was addressing *only* the works of/by George Lucas and Lucasfilm.

-- James King