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Re: Clobberin' Time...

Cryofax
SubjectRe: Clobberin' Time...
FromCryofax
Date09/18/2001 19:17 (09/18/2001 10:17)
Message-ID<423506ec.0109180917.35203289@posting.google.com>
Client
Newsgroupsrec.arts.sf.starwars.misc
FollowsJames Trory

James Trory <j_trory@yahoo.com>wrote in message news:<4hnaqt00vtps6pacfvggfn19dimsba1pln@4ax.com>...

James Trory
High five.

I'm sorry for that, but some of the people on RASSM need to wake up and smell what's cooking. I've been reading what you people have been writing, and I can't bear it any longer. America has trained terrorists, supplied middle eastern countries with weapons, funded terrorist organisations, and has conveniently ignored global terrorism. Please realise that.

We all realize U.S. policy has at times been pretty damn stupid. Hindsight is 20/20. The "friend" you supply with arms to fight your enemy today (Iraq) turns out to be your worst nightmare a few years later. The world is a volitale place, you can only do what you think it right at the time. Today's freedom fighter is tomorrow's terrorist. You think we're the only country that does this?

When was the last time anyone here stopped to mourn for dead British civilians killed by IRA bombs? Huh? Don't get me wrong, I am saddened by the WTC and Pentagon attacks, but I am from a country (Britain) that has fallen pray to terrorism a thousand times, and it doesn't get any sweeter. It greatly upsets me that the people of America only become concerned with tragedies of this nature because it happened on home soil.

Its human nature to be more concerned over things that hit you close to home. I think I speak for many many Americans when I say we cherish our friendship with Britain and are sickened by Terrorism against it.

I think the magnitude of it is also an issue. When you have ongoing attacks that kill dozens of people, even many of those attacks don't open your eyes like thousands and thousands killed in one shot.

Remember also the U.S. has been on the receiving end of several terrorists attacks and never had this kind of reaction before. Sure we've taken some action but I doubt we've seen this kind of nationwide anger and resolve since WWII. I would hope if something this horrible had happened in Britain we would be right there calling for the same action we're calling for now.

All of a sudden there's American flags everywhere (I live in America now, so I am seeing this first hand), movies are being cancelled because their content may been seen as uncaring, people are becoming overly sensitive and patriotic about the entire subject.

Yes and many of us are finding this really irritating... Patriotism is fine, beating up the owner of your local 7-11 because he's an Arab is not Patriotism, it's terrorism.

Many politicians and newscasters have described this event as an "attack on American freedom". Hell no! It is not.

Sure it is. Civil liberties are going to be curbed to prevent terrorism. It may not have been their prime motivation, but it has the effect of killing some of our freedoms.

You may not like them right now, but talk to the people of a country like Afghanistan about freedom. They'll tell you a thing or two.

Like what? That they have none? That's the Taliban in action.

And what kind of patriotism involves persecuting people of Arabic race who were born in the USA? How very noble.

A few inbred retards do not represent the majority. But how ironic of you to condemn the whole country for the actions of a few.

Answer me this; what about the hundreds of thousands of people in the last twenty years that have been fatal victims of terrorism? What about them? Ever put a flag up for them? Every sung a song for them?

Most people are horrified and saddened by all acts of terrorism.

What happened to wanting to flatten Ireland because they were responsible for hundreds of bombings? Do we get payback on them?

Irish fanatics do not equal the Irish government (yes even if a popular political party has some members).

Global terrorism has been an issue for decades, but because it's never affected America, America has chosen to ignore it. As usual, it's had it's ass kicked into gear by a horrendous event, and now the national feeling is that world terrorism has to be wiped out.

What on earth are you talking about? We've been the target of numerous terrorist attacks, and taken steps to combat it on many occasions. But yes the magnitude of this attack is what has opened not just our eyes, but the whole world's eyes. Don't seprate us from the rest of the world. How many Germans cried for British terrorist attacks? Did the British hang flags and sing songs when we had hostages held by Iran for a year?

Bullshit. I know what America will do. It'll find whoever attacked the WTC, flatten the shit out of them, and then go back to ignoring the problem, leaving NATO to sort out what America started.

Your logic is flawed as we have not been ignoring the problem in the first place, any more than any other country in the world. NATO? Do you mean UN peacekeepers? Either way the US is a major component.

Airports within five to ten years will go back to having poor, unacceptable security because of cost cutting measures. No one is in this for the long haul, and make no mistake about that. George W is out to kick some ass, and that is all. Hell, he has to prove that fixing the vote was worth it, so he wants blood. He does not want to end terrorism. He is an intelligent man, believe it or not, and here's the reason why he's not even going to try to end it.

Ah now your motivation has become more clear. You're just a disgruntled Bush hating liberal. Your ramblings have turned to unfounded accusations and being upset over things that haven't even happened yet.

Because you can't.

Terrorism in many ways is an act of desperation. When diplomacy fails, you bring in the arsenal. Terrorists are beyond talking to. Using deadly force to make themselves heard is what they do. And here's the deal: the hardest army to fight is the one that'll die, no matter what, to honour its cause. This is not even about fighting fire with fire. You cannot fight this kind of enemy. Not unless you have people willing to literally hand their lives over. Which people from the West are not willing to do. They value their lives too much.

The idea is to kill them, not ourselves. Our soldiers have died in the past and have accepted that possiblity when they joined up. They are willing to die, but they won't "hand their lives over", they'll be the ones dealing out death.

May I also remind those of you once again, who keep insisting that the A-bomb was a tool of war and cannot be compared to this event, that hundreds of thousands more than at the WTC disaster died that day in 1945. And that hundreds of thousands more suffered miserable lives afterwards. And that each of those hundreds of thousands of people that died and suffered had families elsewhere who also suffered. Please, you can't brush aside human life like that.

Its not "brushed aside". The point is the human toll would have been much greater without the bomb. You can't "brush that aside" either.

You can't just say "well that was different". James King in particular, *you* cannot claim that Japanese civilians bombed in 1945 were not technically civilians because they were members of a country that had gone to war with America, and had broken the codes of war. They had no control over the attack on Pearl Harbour or their country's involvement in the war, *or* their treatment of POWs. War is on a government scale, and you know it. Turn it on its flip side and you'll see that as far as Japanese civilians were concerned, America was the enemy. In any case, you cannot, EVER, justify civilian casualties on such a massive scale. Ever.

Bullshit. Again, there would have been a lot more with a conventional invasion of Japan. If we know 1 million people will die, is it not preferable to take a route that kills half that? Should we have launched a ground invasion of Japan then? Should we have just backed off and said "ah fuckit, too much hassle let's just call it a draw!"

In conclusion, all I'm saying here is please don't go jumping on this insane, spiralling bandwagon of patriotism. Remember the fact that people in other countries have suffered similar fates. The unfortuante employees and visitors to the WTC that day join a very long, long list of victims that should all be mourned collectively. Maybe this event does serve as a turning point in the globel fight against terrorism, because now America has finally been made aware of the fact that it exists.

Again that's assinine. We're been on the receiving end plenty of times. We've taken actions and steps against it. This made the ENTIRE WORLD sit up and take notice, not just us.

It's just unfortunate that thousands of people in NYC had to die to prove it. But that's the sad thing about our governments nowadays, and to some degree the people that they rule over. It takes one massive blow to the brain before it registers. And then we all get our titties in a twist and miss entirely the big picture that's been staring us in the face for thirty years.

But the scale of attacks have been much smaller, and we've taken measured steps against it. This ups the ante big time and so we're upping our response. Do you think we could have gotten support for a gobal coalition to stamp out terrorism before last tuesday? Don't just blame the governments. They need the people's support and no way would they get it before now. People weigh the pros and cons of any situation (as they should). The amount of terrorism, the odds of it affecting you, vs the cost of a major initiative against it just didn't add up until now. Especially with nukes and bio weapons on the horizon for these people...

- Cryo

P.S. Your underlying point of "don't go nationalist crazy and do something rash" is something I think most here agree with. Nothing rash has been done yet, and we could have if we wanted to already. I think this careful path is a good one. But make no mistake when the time comes we must not hold back...