Google| Subject | Re: Clobberin' Time... |
| From | Paul \"Duggy\" Duggan |
| Date | 09/21/2001 07:08 (09/21/2001 15:08) |
| Message-ID | <Pine.OSF.4.21.0109211359200.32648-100000@marlin.jcu.edu.au> |
| Client | |
| Newsgroups | rec.arts.sf.starwars.misc |
| Follows | Wes Hutchings |
| Followups | Wes Hutchings (1h & 24m) > Paul \"Duggy\" Duggan |
On Wed, 19 Sep 2001, Wes Hutchings wrote:
Point being that we are not a neighbour of Afghanistan, and it wasn't about distance or that shit, it was actually about the fact that not everyone in Afghanistan wants to be there - and I'm sure those people don't want to be targeted from something a government they wish to flee is doing.Paul \"Duggy\" DugganWes Hutchings
From: "Paul \"Duggy\" Duggan" <jc122739@jcu.edu.au> On Wed, 19 Sep 2001, Wes Hutchings wrote:Paul \"Duggy\" DugganNo. They went to Pakistan by land. Travelled to Indonesia, paid to travel to America, but were ripped off and sent to Australia.Wes Hutchings
Which still places them closer to you.
We are closer, but we are not a nearer neighbour.
Dazzle me with the distinction that doesn't make you a hypocrite.
That they stopped at the some places along the way is obvious as they SAILED there and they're a LANDLOCKED nation. Please tell me you have an actual point.My point is they were trying to get to America.
Why do I have to tell you the same things over and over again? That's right, because you're not paying attention or you get it wrong the first few times. We JUST covered this above, it is because your nation turned out refugees and in the same breath you criticize the US for not doing what your nation refused to do.I didn't. That was not the topic at all. Whether the US takes refugees or not is not an issue.
If you like I can pull up the old post concerning the spamming response debate, in which you choose what amounts to violent action and here today you claim there is no distinction in violent actions.If you continue to compare the deaths of innocents to you having to delete extra posts I will lose every ounce of respect for you as a human being. *Nothing*... *Nothing* I have seen on this newsgroup "amounts to" the same thing as the lose of a single human life.
I looked back, and as far as I can tell, you replied to my posts before I replied to yours.Paul \"Duggy\" DugganWes Hutchings
I am unaware of your actual position, but I know what I've been replying to that you've written.
No, because if you were doing that, you'd KNOW my actual position or for that matter you'd know what I meant.
Since my posts were stating a wish that the US would not move first to violence, your replies either agreed - and so we've been agreeing all this time - or disagreed - which is what I believed you thought violence was the best action.
Either you beleive that or not. Which is it?
You stated we should have helped the refugees that your country gave the boot.Never did.
Yes. And the fact that this has been bought up *before* America did a lot of it's stupid moves, suggests that the 20/20 hindsight should include *listening to people* once in a while.Paul \"Duggy\" DugganWes Hutchings
The US shouldn't help everyone. In fact they're been helping too many people in the wrong ways.
Hindsight is 20/20, if you pull your head out of your ass, then it'll get a little clearer.
Huh?Paul \"Duggy\" DugganWes Hutchings
I admit it, and hate my country for it.
Thus calling me and my nation responsible while you refused to help people at your doorstep.
Do you know how many tens of millions the US has given Afghanistan this year in food aid?No. Food aid won't help political refugees anyway. Which is the point of the discussion.
You are truly dense. You're criticizing the US and me for not doing something you admit your nation refused to do.I see. I'm a hypocrit because you think I said something I didn't.
All the while forgetting we in fact have aided them."We don't like the government" "Here's some food" "Our supports someone who possibly killed Americans" "We may have to declare war on your country."
I'm not. Feel free to make an actual point. To date you're showing your ignorance and refusal to recognize what is said to you point blank.Huh?
"We've done nothing for decades"Wes HutchingsPaul \"Duggy\" DugganPaul \"Duggy\" DugganWes Hutchings
The part where you don't realise that escalating a situation does not reduce deaths.
We've done nothing for decades.
Hey, this bin Laden guy America hasn't done anything against... didn't he live in a house that exploded? Fortunately for him he wasn't there...
Which was in rettalliation for no less than 2 attacks aaainst military forces.
You did something. Now the same person is (possibly) responsible for a *bigger* attack on Americans.
This is what I mean by making the problem worse.
If you want to lie and claim that you have done nothing to esculate the problem, not then admit that you have used a violent military responce recently - and unsuccessfully - which may have increased the problem.
That's the point I'm trying to make.Paul \"Duggy\" DugganWes Hutchings
I'm sure America didn't have anything to do with that.
I'm sure your comprehension makes it impossible to distinguish between attack and defense.
He attacks military targets. You defend by attacking him. He attacks civillian targets.
I'm saying that defense by military attack is a stupid move. It makes things worse.
Thank you for citing cases.
Quoting you:Paul \"Duggy\" DugganWes Hutchings
Lie all you want, but the truth is America *has* been doing stuff.
Show the lie, do it right fucking now.
You admit that you have done something. And don't claim that defense doesn't count, because esculation was being discussed not attack or defense.We've done nothing for decades.
I see retaliations against acts of terror.Many see the terrorist attacks as retaliation for acts of terror in many other countries.
Attacks on these people will be seen by them as acts of terror, and they will retaliate.
I see them carried out by people we helped train to stand against their enemies. I see that once they managed to get that enemy out of their land we continued to help that country. I see that country stabbing us in the back.
Which part is giving you trouble?The part where you focus on a tiny little part of the picture. Tell a glowing story of how great America is and how it has done no wrong and use that as a justification of violence.
That is exactly the sort of thing that bin Laden does. Ignores part of the story, plays up the others. Justifying the violence and convincing other to carry it out.
He is wrong, and if you truely believe what you said so are you.
Tell you what dumbass. Go take a look at picks of NY city before and after 9-11-01.Anger. Fear. Hatred.
These are not tools for rational decission making.
More telling pictures are not the pictures of the city. A city is nothing. The pictures that said the most to me were the pictures that crying people were carrying around the streets.
New Yorkers looking for loved ones - when you know most - if not all are going to be... I was going to say disappointed... by that isn't a strong enough word.
And you know what stuck in my mind. People in other countries doing the exact same thing. Sometimes after natural disasters. Sometimes terrorist attacks. Sometimes military action.
It never seemed real then. There were subtitles or a v.o. saying what they were saying, it seemed remote, reading the words, or hearing the translation wasn't the same has hearing the real voice.
I knoew nothing about the cities touched before. Probably never seen "before" pictures. Often never heard of or never been able to pronouce the city's name. I'll admit I've never been to NY, or America. But 75% of our TV is American TV. I watch Letterman, Friends, Sex In The City, Seinfeld... it seems more real than these other places.
And America has more cameras. We saw everything. We hardly ever get that with the other things.
But the other things happen. They are real. People die everyday.
And a hell of a lot of these people are killed with American supplied weapons and by American supported countries.
The people with the photos want to know why they have lost people. Why America would do that to them. Some want revenge.
In NY the same thing happens. People with photos want to know why. Some want revenge.
I'm not saying that you shouldn't want revenge. That it's not natural to want to hurt others as you've been hurt.
But it won't stop. Not by continuing the cycle. Not by creating more people with photos. Not by creating more dead.
Tell me there is no justification for the US trying to stop that.It won't stop it.
Show it. Do so completely. No more of your half assed accusations. Back it up or fuck off.I never said that what was done to America was right. I clearly stated it that it was wrong. Very wrong.
I just said to continue the cycle is just as wrong. That the people who did this felt just as justified as you do now.
There are many ways to commit suicide. Standing in the line of fire shooting back is one of them.Paul \"Duggy\" DugganWes Hutchings
Stupid violent people see that as a reason to fight back. People will get killed. Families will lose loved ones. Friends will lose friends.
The difference is do you want us to commit suicide or not? Pick one.
Exactly. For the reasons stated.Paul \"Duggy\" DugganWes Hutchings
More and more angry people will see America as the enemy. Stupid violent ones will attack American targets.
Which they've already been doing.
You seem to think Suicide is the answer.You seem to think that making things worse is.
If you want that option, then go for it. Walk into Afghanistan singing Give Peace a Chance.Why walk into Afghanistan? It isn't my country. It is someone elses. Why do I have to be involved?
I don't. Unless I make myself part of it. Much like the US has done.
Serial killers don't do it for revenge.Paul \"Duggy\" DugganWes Hutchings
Serial killers and others like that? What have they got to do with it.
Show the distinction between them and those who stole an aircraft to kill themselves and everyone on board.
I have. I don't agree with it. But then I don't agree with people using the Twin Towers as a justification for retaliation.Paul \"Duggy\" DugganWes Hutchings
The terrorists that we are discussing have a cause, a reason, a justification.
Show it.
I accept neither, and see people (from either side) who only accept one as being hypocritical.
No. I acknowledge that they have a "reason" that they think "justifies" their action.Paul \"Duggy\" DugganWes Hutchings
Whether it be right or wrong it's still for a reason.
Hypocrite to the core.
I don't accept it.
That is not hypocritical.
It's alright for them to kill for their reasons, but not for us to put and to it for our reasons.I never said that. In fact I repeatedly said the opposite. I, quite frankly want you to appologise for saying that.
Now.
No. You made what I hope was a stupidly exagerated comment - which actually fits how many view your country. I remarked that that sort of thing only helps people see it that way. Where is the hypocracy?Wes HutchingsWe're higher on the food chain.Paul \"Duggy\" Duggan
Gee, with thinking like that it makes it hard to see why is America painted as a tyrant in the countries of it's enemies and cultural imperialists in the countries of it's friends.
And the hypocrite strikes again.
Give the reason your nation denied the refugees.Because they didn't "go through the proper channels" which means they didn't wait in Pakistan to be processed, they instead went purchased plane tickets to Indonesia, then paid to be illegally taken to America, but were in the process of being taken to Australia instead.
Once again, I disagree with my country's stand.
Note ours still gives their country humanitarian aid.So does ours... or perhaps they stopped a month ago when Australian nationals were arrested and possibly sentenced to death for preaching Christianity.
Note they kill us for kicks.No. Unless you are once again changing the object without notification "they" is "Afghanistan". The only thing Afghanistan has been shown to have done is to hide the possible "mastermind" behind the attack.
You are confusing a person in the country with the country and the population. Again.
And it wasn't "for kicks".
We kill to stop one group from indiscriminately killing another. You apparently vote for suicide.No. I'm saying to stop the terrorists through non-violent means. It well stop this thing esculating into another form of suicide.
No, I claimed that violence was not the answer. I never made any claim about it being the only option open the the US.Paul \"Duggy\" DugganWes Hutchings
I never claimed that not violent methods were wrong.
No, you claimed the US knew no other way and was going to use only violence.
You should be using more.Wes HutchingsIn this circumstance it is people like you reacting without brains.Paul \"Duggy\" Duggan
By advising caution?
No by not realizing we're using caution.
No.Paul \"Duggy\" DugganWes Hutchings
I'm arguing against certain causes of action. If they don't happen I'm happy. If they were never planned by the US government I'm even happier. But they have been suggested, and I disagree with them
You are not stating your objections against possible actions, you are stating them against what you consider defined wrongs that WILL happen because the US knows no other way.
The last attack on bin Laden.Paul \"Duggy\" DugganWes Hutchings
You ignore the fact that America has done it
Supply a fucking noun. Are you discussing the past? Specify a fucking event then dipshit.
Australia doesn't. Which is why our military leaders are now saying that while they support the PMs offer of support, they'd like to know what that means, and would like to think that the US wasn't going over-react.Paul \"Duggy\" DugganWes Hutchings
Deploying the military in something called "Infinite Justice" doesn't sound non-violent.
Perhaps the nation down under wants to commit suicide. I doubt it. The US has no such policy.
They don't want us to commit suicide by escualting things.
--- - Dug. --- "May you live in interesting times." ---
09/11/2001-
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