Russ
In article <a9d7f4$27rt9$2@ID-121201.news.dfncis.de>, "David Flood" <NOSPAMmaoltuile@utvinternet.ie>writes:

<snip>

<boggles>I can direct you to any number of similar statements by the English over the centuries, you know, with regards to Ireland.

The Irish, notably, tended to accept their defeats and stop fighting

being defeated.

David Flood
Only in preparation for the *next* rising. Did you know that a splinter group of Fenians (acting on their own initiative) carried on a 'Dynamite' campaign in England after the unsuccessful rebellions in the

century, even though it had no discernible chance of achieving

Russ
And how much support did they get?

Comparing the IRA to the Palestinians groups is like comparing apples

oranges. While the IRA has committed terrorist acts, it is far from

modus operandi as it is among Palestinians groups (a notable statistic

David Flood
that

percentage wise, the IRA killed less civilians than the RUC and British

Army.

Oh, come on. Let's be adults here, and call a spade a spade - the IRA,

PLO, FARC, the ANC, the East Timorese FLA - they're all cut from the same revolutionary cloth.

Russ
Let's do be adults here. Are you seriously comparing the record of the

Palestinian terror groups. There's no denying the IRA has committed

acts but it is certainly not their modus operandi as it is for the Palestinians.

In very rough figures, 3600 people were killed during the 'Troubles'.

those, or 1800, were killed by the IRA. Half of that figure, or 900 were civilians. 900 over 30 years. How many civilians were killed by the UN

Iraq in less than one year? How many civilians were killed by NATO in

in less than one year? I daresay many more than the 900 the IRA killed

30 years.

David Flood
'Guerilla warfare' is the only resort against a more powerful nation which has occupied your own homeland, making it

for you to raise and train conventional forces to do something about it.

Russ
Yes, but *means* are an important factor in determining whether a use of

is justified or not. Hijacking a plane or strapping explosives to your

on an entirely different plane than bombs preceded by telephone warnings.

David Flood
I'm going to make an important distinction here, between a genuine revolutionary movement with identifiable political aims and grievances,

religious/racist/fundamentalist psychopaths who can *never* be reasoned with, and who intend nothing less than the utter annihilation of anyone

perceive as offending their sensibilities.

Russ
No, it's not simply having identifiable political aims. Those aims must

accompanied by a justified use of force.

You can verify this stastic at the CAIN (Univ. of Ulster) website).

David Flood
Moreover,

unlike the Palestinians, among Irish nationalists, IRA attacks that unreasonably caused civilian deaths were largely not supported by the

civilian

population. A terrorist attack by the IRA (by that I mean at attack

intended civilians deaths) was always followed by condemnation from the

larger

nationalist community. In fact, while the IRA was 'fighting' the

of

nationalists supported the non-violent SDLP party. That contrasts

strongly

with the 75+% of Palestinians that support homicode bombings. The

of

the IRA crossing the line are so rare that one can name them almost immediately. On the other hand, Palestinian acts directed against

civilians

are virtually a daily occurence.

While people may have abhorred the Provos' methods (and some of their

intentions) utterly, they could understand *why* they had gotten caught

in an endless, dirty little war with the Brits (and I'm purposely

their Loyalist proxies here), even though they made a point of shunning

as pariahs.

Russ
Their use of force was only justified in the early stages of the Troubles. There did come a time when British reform warranted a turn to nonviolence. Because violence was justified at one point in time does notmean it stays

forever.