Christopher Kreuzer
[Crossposted to RABT]

John Swanson <nospam@nospam.com>wrote:

John Swanson
"Christopher Kreuzer" <spamgard@blueyonder.co.uk>wrote

Christopher Kreuzer
John Swanson <nospam@nospam.com>wrote:

John Swanson
The public situation makes other discussions possible, and now and then someone strikes upon something I find worthwhile to read.

Christopher Kreuzer
I find that "finding something worthwhile to read" in Tolkien commentary happens quite a lot for me. A bit more than "now and again", but I suppose it is different for different people with different tastes and interests.

John Swanson
Often, however, the starting point is a realistic reading of Middle Earth as a place that have existed. I have written on the subject before in rabt, hope you don't mind that I use a tinyurl shortcut. It's the last paragraph:

http://tinyurl.com/5eor2

Christopher Kreuzer
I would agree especially with the bit about the text being a window into the world of ME, and how some people try to be historians and geographers of ME. Personally, I've always been attracted to the literary side of things, just admiring the power of the writing to fuel the imagination. That is a rare skill.

In a way, that was why I responded to your initial post, where you talked about "faint reminiscences of literary magic in Tolkien's work...." I was taken aback that the appreciation of the literary magic could fade. I can understand interest in the realism approach fading after a while, but I've always thought the literary power of Tolkien to be timeless.

John Swanson
The realistic reading has a twin brother, namely the idea that while there are contradictions in TW, there is an ideal truth about ME in the mind of the author - and if we can reconstruct this out of his notes and the timeline of the writing process, then we will know more. Not about TW, nota bene, but about ME. These two ideas has as a consequences that the discussion often turns into a dry, nitpicking argument, or, as a helpless response to that, ironical jokes where the realistic reading is exaggerated into comedy.

Christopher Kreuzer
Very funny comedy, though! :-)

John Swanson
Look, I'm not really complaining, because I realize that this too is a way of dealing with Tolkien and meeting other people through TW. If we only talked about what's really important in a book, people would mostly be silent, and to many this obviously is a satisfying approach. But it does contribute to the banalisation of TW.

Christopher Kreuzer
I wouldn't use such a strong word as banal, but I see what you are saying. I think there is much worse banalisation of TW.

John Swanson
A third thing, but also important, is that when I was young, the people I knew cared about TW were nice persons. One of the reasons that I enjoy aft/rabt is of course that there are lots of people just like that here. But there are also Tolkien fans with whom I seem to have almost nothing in common, people that I cannot like, understand or even feel respect for.

Christopher Kreuzer
I tend to try to depersonalise the debate, which is not always possible when people are so nice, but is easy if you don't like someone's onscreen attitude...

It is probably true as well that people bring their baggage with them. They may be a Tolkien fan and enjoy reading stuff here, but they also pursue their other (OT) interests here, with results of variable interest to others (to say the least).

John Swanson
While this in itself is an interesting and enriching experience, it makes me question what it actually is, this common ground we obviously share in Tolkien?

Christopher Kreuzer
Maybe it it because Tolkien is a subject from which a gnat can drink and in which an elephant can bathe? Just the incredible breadth and depth means that a wide variety of people will be attracted to it.

My experience rather is of finding _new_ things with each re-reading that I hadn't noticed before. Maybe I haven't read it enough times yet...

John Swanson
I also find new things, especially with the help of rabt/aft, but then it cannot compare to reading other good books for the first time...

Christopher Kreuzer
But I find that some books, good as they are when read for the first time, still don't compare to the experience of re-reading Tolkien. In a sense though I don't really re-read Tolkien, I explore his writings, rediscovering memorable and moving passages.

Seriously, I would hope that the magic of reading certain passages would never fade or grow stale, but I have noticed my preference for certain passages changing over the years. What I think other people have said is that as their lives change with time, so their experience of re-reading LotR is informed by this and hence is a different experience from the readings of their youth.

I wonder how many people feel like you, and 'grow out' of LotR? (If I may use such a phrase to describe your experiences of re-reading). Probably not too many like that around here...

John Swanson
I feel quite content with the situation, but I wouldn't use the word "grow out". Rather has LOTR been pushed out by other things - OTOH, since I browse these newsgroups once in a while I probably spend more time on Tolkien now than I've done for years.

Christopher Kreuzer
Is that because of the newsgroups or Tolkien's works? :-)