Google| Subject | Re: spreadsheet ergonomics |
| From | Snit |
| Date | 04/05/2017 04:27 (04/04/2017 19:27) |
| Message-ID | <D509A412.9CCBF%usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> |
| Client | |
| Newsgroups | comp.os.linux.advocacy |
| Follows | owl |
| Followups | owl (1h & 32m) > Snit |
On 4/4/17, 7:05 PM, in article javz903.abu@rooftop.invalid, "owl" <owl@rooftop.invalid>wrote:
owlI assume you are sending it instructions with some script... but even if I did that I am SURE Numbers would take much longer. That is the type task Numbers sucks at -- no argument here. And I also realize that there are many instances where people DO want spreadsheets similar to what you speak of to deal with large amounts of data and number crunching.
Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com>wrote:Snitowl
On 4/4/17, 6:14 PM, in article avx89zb.f8c9a@rooftop.invalid, "owl" <owl@rooftop.invalid>wrote:owlSnit
Snit <usenet@gallopinginsanity.com>wrote:Snitowl
On 4/4/17, 3:38 PM, in article ahbiz003.buyr@rooftop.invalid, "owl" <owl@rooftop.invalid>wrote:
...SnitowlowlSnit
Here's a creation process for you:
https://vid.me/pG0C
zero to 52000 tables in 2.57 seconds. Each with locked labels and formulas. Instantaneous jump to any table.
But you will not show the type work we have been doing with multiple tables all showing and being interrelated and updating automatically?
I've already shown that.
Great... then point to the video where you created it by scratch (not running a script where you have preset a single task).
I have asked you repeatedly why it is that you want a video of me typing in vim. Still no answer.
I have repeatedly answered.
And it is now clear you will NEVER show something similar to this, but using your tools:
<https://youtu.be/YfvQb8cxTBg>
Creating, from scratch and zero preparation (other than to have a program open and I can show that if you want!), multiple tables (some on the same sheet and others not) and where the cells of any one table can reference the cells of another... and just for fun an added chart. Whole thing (again, with no preparation or pre-set scripting or anything else prepared for the task) is about a minute.
Not shown, I admit, I shared it so you or anyone else could work with that spreadsheet (though I could have it also tied to specific users or passwords).
Now, of course, the tables I show there are just for demo purposes -- it is not like that has any real-world value other then educational, so I also shared this:
<https://youtu.be/VzVKlou6byU>
More complex tables with combined cells and more complex formulas (though still no major number crunching or the like), and I show the value of having the multiple tables and color coding of formula references and more. I would NOT expect you to recreate something like that just to show in COLA... it would take more time than I would reasonably expect you to do.
But with the first one, hey, it is a minute or two and -- BOOM -- done. Not like it is a big deal. Also, of course, you are under no obligation to do so, but given the time you have spent showing how you can have related tables and the like I think it is safe to say your tools simply do not allow for that type of work.
And, again, nothing wrong with that. Heck, there are MANY spreadsheet tasks where Numbers SUCKS. So, again, not putting you or sc down in any way... just good to see what each does well.
Hey, maybe you can show some of the spreadsheet tasks you think sc handles well... I am sure there are many you can think of where Numbers and even Excel would just suck at.
How long does it take in Numbers to create a sheet with 52000 tables with locked formulas and labels (A-Z with 2000 tables in each column, each table with a label{#} at the top, and a sum the bottom, summing 10 rows)? And how long does it take to navigate to a specific such table?
2.57 seconds here with sc.
You tend to label things which benefit usability as "fluff" or just "style" when they, often, are key to how tools are used.owlSnitSnitowl
For that matter, did you ever even get a set of tables on a single sheet where you can update any table and have it flow through without flickering? If so would love to see how.
You are aware that sc only presents one sheet at a time. It is necessary to use multiple sheets to have floating tables.
Yes... I know of that limitation of it.owlSnit
This has been shown to you multiple times already, and, aside from the Mack fluff, ever functional aspect has been addressed.
What do you mean by "fluff" -- can you be specific?
Emphasis on style instead of substance.
...
So it makes more sense to close the files, rename them, move them, and then open them? Heck, even if you do it that way it is STILL easier on macOS -- you can (for most programs) just use the recent items lists!owlSnitSnitowl
LOL! Yeah, no assuming you have enough common sense to figure out people do not want to lose data. Repeatedly.
Where is the "common sense" in renaming an open file?
Has already been discussed MANY times with me giving specific examples of when I have done so. Just off the top of my head:
* Downloaded a video and opened it... then realized it is was in the place I store it nor with the name (or label) I prefer. No reason to close it just to rename and move it (and add a label)!
* Opened files named "[Whatever] - New" and "[Whatever]" and, as I worked with them, realize I had related files with a different naming scheme... and saved in different folders. So renamed them to "[Whatever]" and "[Whatever] - OLD" and also moved them to their correct folders.
None of that represents "common sense."
So even doing that rather non-intuitive, inefficient, workaround for a lack of a simple ability to rename and move files without closing them Linux still does not do a very good job.
That creates a copy.Snitowl
Why in situations such as that, as well as any other similar one, would you want to HAVE to close the file just to rename it or move it. That is a pretty big limitation!
"Save As..."
And I believe I read something about people complaining about not having a "Save As..." and so they put it back, along with a "Duplicate" choice. The Apple crew is just a bunch of clods.I think it is good to have both available -- they do different things and both are of value!
Personally I like choice and flexibility, but I suppose that might be overwhelming for some... or just not to their tastes. Maybe they are rigid in their thinking and do not want to have to decide which option will serve them best.
To each their own.
Meaning faked or, more likely, some significant weaknesses you will not share. OK.Snitowl
But all of this is off the topic of your failure to have your solution take common sense into account.SnitSeriously, if you are claiming that concept goes over your head then you must be the world's worst scripter.owl
I have also shown you a solution that does not lose data in other open files:
https://vid.me/XLwZ
Right... your solution for one program, not built in and never explained, and with the video with bizarre zooming (curious why you did that... does not really hurt it but just weird).
It may remain a mystery. I keep some magic to myself.
The idea is to have it be, largely, system wide. And I have noted where the macOS environment, while doing a better job at it, is far from perfect.Snitowl
But it shows your thinking in terms of one program
Once again you try to move the goal posts. Your specification was for doing it LibreOffice.
If there was not a significant weakness you would happily share it. Not going to play guessing games to try to figure out what, but clearly there is.Snitowl
and not the system... while showing something I did not expect you to so, sure, well done. Curious why you never shared it... I suspect you had different instances of LO or other weaknesses.
Nope.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File_manager> ----- A file manager or file browser is a computer program that provides a user interface to manage files and folders. The most common operations performed on files or groups of files include creating, opening (e.g. viewing, playing, editing or printing), renaming, moving or copying, deleting and searching for files, as well as modifying file attributes, properties and file permissions. Folders and files may be displayed in a hierarchical tree based on their directory structure. Some file managers contain features inspired by web browsers, including forward and back navigational buttons. -----Snitowl
If nothing else you cannot just drag and drop from your file browser.
My browser?
This is a common way of moving and renaming files. And, of course, with Linux if you do that without closing a file first you are far more likely to run into problems.
As I said, I made the assumption of common sense from you... and, yes, clearly that was my failure.owlSnitowlIt is your responsibility to detail everything you expect from a solution.Snit
The assumption of basic common sense is included in everything I say.
A written specification represents the totality of the requirments.
So you do not assume and take into consideration common sense with your work. Fair enough. That is just one other way we look at things differently. For me common sense and thinking in terms of risks is important and just comes naturally. For you that is not the case.
You wrote the specification. It's your FAIL. I can't help it if you are unable to put a coherent request to paper.
-- Personal attacks from those who troll show their own insecurity. They cannot use reason to show the message to be wrong so they try to feel somehow superior by attacking the messenger.
They cling to their attacks and ignore the message time and time again.
<https://youtu.be/H4NW-Cqh308>
03/31/2017-
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