Snit
On 4/2/17, 5:14 PM, in article ykahvj003ta.yr@rooftop.invalid, "owl" <owl@rooftop.invalid>wrote:

...

Ok, the looping in the background is clearly kludgy.

owl
It's not a kludge. It's the way it works.

Snit
Except as you note, it does not auto-update without you writing such scripts and then you see flashing on the screen.

owl
The "flashing" is not an artifact, but a message notifying you that it's running an external script. I'm not sure that you can turn that off.

Snit
Right... it is flashing and jumping up and down screaming for attention even when you are NOT updating data. That is worse than the damned Mac dock icons which can jump up and down.

Can you even go from table to table and modify them without starting and stopping scripts?

owl
Yes. You can click the menu on the xterm and uncheck "Allow SendEvents" when you need to edit the sheet. Then turn them back on when you're done.

Snit
But you do not consider this to be a kludgy work-around?

And I guess this is where we have a value for your tool to have all windows move together... they are all just separate floating windows, not at all the idea of having a single file with tables there (single file as in that is how it is presented to the user... not interested in what is happening in the background).

owl
So present it to the user as embedded windows if that's important.

Snit
Why not show setting this all up... and I showed setting up my tables.

Heck, we could even have multiple tables each with multiple rows where table A references B and C, Table B references A and C, and Table C references A and B. All updating as you want... and sharable.

Would be best to be able to lock columns you do not want changed and to be able to share it over multiple OSs which Numbers cannot do (well, it can be shared on the web version, and that is not bad but it is not the same as having the file locally).

Which contains a bunch of files (at least in this case) and they are not in any way treated as a single file once they are in a usable format.

owl
The files might be accessed through a single script, which might be tied to a hotkey or launcher.

Snit
I am talking about just sending a spreadsheet to someone and letting them use it. If it is multiple files in the background (say in a zipped format) that is fine -- as long as the end user can just open it and use it.

owl
Why is a zipped format (as in a docx) "fine," but a tarball is not fine?

Snit
Big difference: one you simply save and send (or share online) and the other you have to engage in scripting and unpacking and fiddling with (or more work to try to reduce the fiddling with).

owl
All of that can be scripted so it is transparent. What do you think is happening behind the scenes within a docx file?

Snit
The point is one you have to script and set up and have as multiple files and assume a pretty high level of knowledge on the part of the recipient and an even higher level of knowledge from the developer... NONE of it dealing with actually just putting numbers and formulas and charts into a spreadsheet.

You have to fiddle with a bunch of externals and not just focus on the work. What I am showing you is focusing on (pretty much) just the work. It is true the person needs to know the basics of how to turn their computer on, use a mouse and keyboard (or use the either one to emulate the other, basically), etc. But all very basic things.

But, as I have said, with Numbers you need an Apple made OS (the program comes with it, I think). So that is a pretty big hurdle to jump.

Really comes down to from the user perspective is it one item they are dealing with or multiple?

owl
As I said, it can be made to appear to be a single item.

Snit
Can you show this single item? I will happily double click it on a Linux VM and we shall see if it is as easy as the simple URL I provided you (which you can use to download the file, too).

It is one of the reasons that FM Pro changed their file format so you can have multiple tables in one file... makes things much easier for the end user.

Did you see this... used to be that FM Pro had each table be in its own file. They then improved things by having them all in one.

owl
Documents do not need to be in single files. Are not docx files themselves just compressed archives of multiple files?

Snit
I believe so. Same with the files Numbers use (you can even open the "package" contents and look at it if you care to... but most users have no such need ever).

owl
And you could have a script in the tarball that does everything with one command. For that matter, the tarball itself could be wrapped in a script.

Snit
Right... all sorts of scripting and working with multiple files. That is what I am talking about.

owl
You have a primitive view of what scripting can do.

Snit
Could be... but how do you think that is relevant? Keep in mind I am talking about how these things are done -- focusing on the tool itself (the spreadsheet) or focusing on all sorts of external things such as scripts and working with multiple files, etc.