Google| Subject | Re: spreadsheet ergonomics |
| From | Snit |
| Date | 04/03/2017 02:33 (04/02/2017 17:33) |
| Message-ID | <D506E669.9C611%usenet@gallopinginsanity.com> |
| Client | |
| Newsgroups | comp.os.linux.advocacy |
| Follows | owl |
| Followups | owl (1h & 12m) > Snit |
On 4/2/17, 5:14 PM, in article ykahvj003ta.yr@rooftop.invalid, "owl" <owl@rooftop.invalid>wrote:
...
Right... it is flashing and jumping up and down screaming for attention even when you are NOT updating data. That is worse than the damned Mac dock icons which can jump up and down.owlSnitSnitowl
Ok, the looping in the background is clearly kludgy.
It's not a kludge. It's the way it works.
Except as you note, it does not auto-update without you writing such scripts and then you see flashing on the screen.
The "flashing" is not an artifact, but a message notifying you that it's running an external script. I'm not sure that you can turn that off.
But you do not consider this to be a kludgy work-around?Snitowl
Can you even go from table to table and modify them without starting and stopping scripts?
Yes. You can click the menu on the xterm and uncheck "Allow SendEvents" when you need to edit the sheet. Then turn them back on when you're done.
Why not show setting this all up... and I showed setting up my tables.Snitowl
And I guess this is where we have a value for your tool to have all windows move together... they are all just separate floating windows, not at all the idea of having a single file with tables there (single file as in that is how it is presented to the user... not interested in what is happening in the background).
So present it to the user as embedded windows if that's important.
Heck, we could even have multiple tables each with multiple rows where table A references B and C, Table B references A and C, and Table C references A and B. All updating as you want... and sharable.
Would be best to be able to lock columns you do not want changed and to be able to share it over multiple OSs which Numbers cannot do (well, it can be shared on the web version, and that is not bad but it is not the same as having the file locally).
The point is one you have to script and set up and have as multiple files and assume a pretty high level of knowledge on the part of the recipient and an even higher level of knowledge from the developer... NONE of it dealing with actually just putting numbers and formulas and charts into a spreadsheet.owlSnitowlSnitSnitowl
Which contains a bunch of files (at least in this case) and they are not in any way treated as a single file once they are in a usable format.
The files might be accessed through a single script, which might be tied to a hotkey or launcher.
I am talking about just sending a spreadsheet to someone and letting them use it. If it is multiple files in the background (say in a zipped format) that is fine -- as long as the end user can just open it and use it.
Why is a zipped format (as in a docx) "fine," but a tarball is not fine?
Big difference: one you simply save and send (or share online) and the other you have to engage in scripting and unpacking and fiddling with (or more work to try to reduce the fiddling with).
All of that can be scripted so it is transparent. What do you think is happening behind the scenes within a docx file?
You have to fiddle with a bunch of externals and not just focus on the work. What I am showing you is focusing on (pretty much) just the work. It is true the person needs to know the basics of how to turn their computer on, use a mouse and keyboard (or use the either one to emulate the other, basically), etc. But all very basic things.
Can you show this single item? I will happily double click it on a Linux VM and we shall see if it is as easy as the simple URL I provided you (which you can use to download the file, too).Snitowl
But, as I have said, with Numbers you need an Apple made OS (the program comes with it, I think). So that is a pretty big hurdle to jump.
Really comes down to from the user perspective is it one item they are dealing with or multiple?
As I said, it can be made to appear to be a single item.
Did you see this... used to be that FM Pro had each table be in its own file. They then improved things by having them all in one.Snit
It is one of the reasons that FM Pro changed their file format so you can have multiple tables in one file... makes things much easier for the end user.
Could be... but how do you think that is relevant? Keep in mind I am talking about how these things are done -- focusing on the tool itself (the spreadsheet) or focusing on all sorts of external things such as scripts and working with multiple files, etc.owlSnitowlowlSnit
Documents do not need to be in single files. Are not docx files themselves just compressed archives of multiple files?
I believe so. Same with the files Numbers use (you can even open the "package" contents and look at it if you care to... but most users have no such need ever).
And you could have a script in the tarball that does everything with one command. For that matter, the tarball itself could be wrapped in a script.
Right... all sorts of scripting and working with multiple files. That is what I am talking about.
You have a primitive view of what scripting can do.
Sure... but it still comes down to you have not shown the full process. And, of course, you are then moving from working directly with the data to an extra level of abstraction.owlYou criticized my video by saying that I had scripted everything in advance.Snit
Correct: with mine I show starting from complete scratch... other, I suppose, than opening Numbers. I even started on a different file and create a new one. NOTHING scripted or pre-made by me. Just jump in and work.owlSnit
The thing is, the entirety of what you see on screen is the result of one small script.
A script you do not show creating... and it means you are not even directly making the product you show. That is sorta my point. :)
There are multiple ways to edit an sc file. That's one of its primary benefits. There is no requirment to go through the interactive interface at all. It is an ascii file and can be edited in vim or with a script. Depending on the complexity, creating a script can be faster than using the interactive interface.
You are right that it is a benefit to have that capability... and while Numbers can be scripted it would be harder to do many scripting activities with than with sc. In other words, for THOSE types of tasks, which might be tied to things such as having preset data you are processing on a regular basis (as an example), sc would be a great solution.
Has anyone suggested otherwise?owlThat script creates all the spreadsheets, the update script, the gnuplot script, specifies the initial window positions, and executes them. There was no manual creation of anything at all, other than the single script.Snit
Again, that is pretty much my point.
What point? That the user should be able to edit a single file? The script is a single file.
I provided such for you with ease... just used the built in sharing tools. With sc you are right you CAN do such things... though it AGAIN takes a lot more work outside of the direct task you are working on and assume a higher level of skill outside of those tasks for the different people working on it.owlSnitowlX11 forwarding lets people easily access and edit stuff remotely.Snit
Would love to work with your shared content... just post a link like I did. In case you lost my link (looks like it was snipped) here it is:
I would let you shell into my machine and do some X11 forwarding, but you know...
I do... you do not want to share yours because of security risks. Mine is, right now, shared with the world.
I don't have a hosted server for you to shell in to, but theoretically I could mitigate any personal risk by doing so. I would still be able to see your updates locally in real time by shelling in myself. (The same file you edit would be the one that is forwarded to my local screen).
Try sharing your solution with, say, 10 people who are not techies. I can do the same with mine (heck, high school students did with their much more complex magic spell system for their game). They were each able to access it and use it as designed with essentially no training outside of which cells to edit (the blue ones) and what they mean (so they had to know their game well enough to be able to use the tool for the game).
This means they were able to focus on their task ... playing a game ... and do (essentially) no training on how to use the computer (they all had basic skills of web browsing and the like down... most people do these days).
-- Personal attacks from those who troll show their own insecurity. They cannot use reason to show the message to be wrong so they try to feel somehow superior by attacking the messenger.
They cling to their attacks and ignore the message time and time again.
<https://youtu.be/H4NW-Cqh308>
03/31/2017-
-
-
