Sandman
In article <sjj3j9tcphc4s5ha6dlibj8h9cv2bgtcl6@4ax.com>, Tony Cooper wrote:

Tony Cooper
What he ignores is that in *all* purchases online, there is no sales help available.

Sandman
How did you determine that he "ignores" this? Where is the quote from nospam where he made it clear that he is ignoring this aspect?

Tony Cooper
If it isn't stated, it's ignored.

Sandman
Whoa! That quote is one for the archives. If it isn't stated, it's ignored.

Tony Cooper
While everything can't be stated, when the position is taken that retail stores do not have helpful staff, and that there is an "online landscape" to be reckoned with, the same analysis of the online landscape should be addressed.

Sandman
That's like saying that a retail store have ugly shelves and thus one is forced to make a comment about online store's lack of shelves.

Everyone knows that there is next to no contact with staff on online stores. Why state the obvious?

Plus, it's only half true - there are tons of sites out there that can help you find your perfect TV set or gaming console if you just tell it what parameters are important to you.

Tony Cooper
Within certain parameters that the *buyer* determines.

Sandman
Not necessarily, While most of my experience is with swedish sites, I'm sure comparable ones exists for the US. Sites that will give you some basic questions to get you started in finding your product. Like if you're looking for a TV, you get the questions whether you want 3D, how large it should be, what price range you're interested in and so forth. We have pricerunner and prisjakt (price hunt) as two examples here in Sweden.

Sure, there's rarely an online help staff on online retail sites (but it does exist), but that doesn't mesn that one can't make informed purchases online.

Tony Cooper
What does exist in online help is no more helpful to the buyer than what is available in a poorly-staffed retail store. The buyer has to know what to ask in both situations.

Sandman
This I agree with. And it's pretty logical as well - staff, online or not, can't be expected to educate each and every customer on what they need to know, really. Unless you're a small brick and mortar store, which sort of brings us full circle. With a smaller store, you usually get more helpful staff (at least in the past) that really cared about getting the product that fit you best since it would benefit them in the long run.

Tony Cooper
Any help the customer gets at a retail store is more than what any online seller offers. If nothing else, the buyer at a retail store gets to handle the camera before purchase.

Sandman
That is, if the store has it in stock. Large electornic stores have the most popular ones, but the small "brick and mortar" stores rarely do.

Tony Cooper
You may find that to be true in Sweden, but that's not the case in most places here. The reference is to cameras, and the small camera store is going to stock the same popular cameras that the big box store stocks. They may not have as wide a selection, but that is because the big box store carry things like GE point-and-shoots that a respectable camera store wouldn't carry.

Sandman
I'll look into it when I get to FLorida, but when I'm talking about large stores, I talk about stores like MediaMarkt, a store that easily have some 90-100 different cameras on the shelves and some 40-50 lenses as well. A small store just doesn't have the physical room for it, nor do they usually have the economics to keep so many display units.

There are, of course, specialized camera stores in high end parts of some towns here that are stocked from floor to ceiling with gear, but I wouldn't really call them brick & mortar stores though. They're like MediaMarkt but *just* the camera section :)

Tony Cooper
I may be a bit prejudiced in favor of the retail store because the two camera stores in Orlando are both staffed by knowledgeable and helpful staff. But, if I go to a big box store and deal with a sales person that doesn't know the difference between a interchangeable lens body and a fixed lens body, that's my fault.

Sandman
Oh? I mean.. how so? I mean, do you mean the mistake here wasn't that the store doesn't have knowledgable people on staff - but rather that you didn't know they didn't employ them and you went in there expecting help when none could be found?

Tony Cooper
It's my mistake if I discover that the staff person is without sufficient basic knowledge and I continue to work with him instead of walking out.

Sandman
Well, sure, but it's hardly your mistake that the store didn't have knowledgable staff employed. Maybe I just misunderstood you.

How would one go about to determine whether such staff is on the floor on any given day - or even on the payroll at all?

Tony Cooper
You can't figure that out in two or three minutes?

Sandman
Not unless I actually get in my car and drive down to the store and interact with them, no. And that's a lot of time wasted there already.

Scott Schuckert
Now, here's a challenge for you: SHOW US a camera (not a lens cap or a battery) that sells for twice at much in a retail store as through a mail order house. Exact same, current model and brand, that is, say, $200 at Cardinal Camera in Lansdale Pa. and $100 at B&H in New York. Or any other comparable vendors.

Tony Cooper
He won't be able to. That's typical hyperbole from nospam.

Sandman
It may very well be hyperbole, but that's hardly uncommon in a discussion - from either side I might add.

Tony Cooper
It removes him from any position of authority on the subject.

Sandman
I'm quite sure that's ok with him. We all know the animosity you have towards him and I don't think he's delusional to imagine that you consider him an "authority" on anything.

That said, exaggeration is done by most people in a discussion, including you, so the same conclusion applies to you as well.

Or, we could just identify the exaggeration and take it into account and see the point for what it is rather than to nitpick on details.

Tony Cooper
It makes one doubt anything he says. While hyperbole is often used in other cases, nospam and his "never", "always", "no one", "everyone", and examples like this one, he's alone at the top in this department.

Sandman
I'm sure you're quite aware that this applies as much to you as him. And me as well, probably. It's easy to use absolutes in a discussion because it gets the message across. Sometimes I call you on it and sometimes you call me on it (difference being that I either retract or substantiate the claim and you don't).