PeterN
On 12/6/2013 9:36 PM, Savageduck wrote:

Savageduck
On 2013-12-07 02:18:39 +0000, PeterN <peter.newnospam@verizon.net>said:

PeterN
On 12/6/2013 6:25 PM, Eric Stevens wrote:

Eric Stevens
On Fri, 6 Dec 2013 08:17:18 -0800, Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com>wrote:

Savageduck
On 2013-12-06 14:58:53 +0000, PeterN <peter.newnospam@verizon.net> said:

PeterN
On 12/5/2013 11:55 PM, Savageduck wrote:

Savageduck
On 2013-12-06 04:26:42 +0000, PeterN <peter.newnospam@verizon.net> said:

PeterN
On 12/5/2013 10:58 PM, nospam wrote:

nospam
In article <l7rhm701ngv@news6.newsguy.com>, PeterN <peter.newnospam@verizon.net>wrote:

PeterN
Is it your claim that in the film days, a good photo artist did not have to understand the how and why of film. He did not have to understand masking with film, the effect of various chemicals, and light sources on things such as contrast, and grain?

nospam
my claim is that in film days, knowing how and being proficient in darkroom work was not required.

PeterN
Not require for what. Snapshots and i've been there images, you are right. Is it your claim that a film photographer could produce art without a thorough understanding of what he was doing?

Savageduck
I thought we were talking photography, not art. Photo journalists and documentarians do not consider themselves artists, they are photographers. ...and then there are the snapshot shooters who can on occasion be accidental artists, or documentarians.

nospam
some photographers did do their own darkroom work, but as i said, it wasn't required. many pro photographers worked with a pro lab who took care of the details.

PeterN
Somewhere back I made it clear that I was excluding snapshots and "I've been there" inages from my definition of photography. There is little doubt in my mind that event photographers certainly use actions. I stand by my original comment, which got twisted by a certain individual, that in order to be successful, you have to have a good understanding of the effects of the physics and craft of photography. You need pre-visualization and sufficient knowledge to turn your vision into the image you want.

Savageduck
How did Capa pre-visualize these 11 shots? < http://www.skylighters.org/photos/robertcapa.html >

Eric Stevens
I think you can class them as snapshots.

Savageduck
Pre-visualization can work as a technique for static shots such as landscapes, studio portraits, fashion photography, etc. we have learned that from Adams. However, when it comes to action shots, it is a matter of documenting that action by capturing the moment. That applies to war/combat photography, sports photography & Cartier-Bresson style street. Those photographers might be able to predict an action as the subjects pass through a particular target area, but they are not likely to predict or pre-visualize the result. ...and yet they are photographers.

< http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-R9gRCZBqljk/UHVkt1cZcYI/AAAAAAAABp8/sNh8ubHRAuc/s1600/1burrows_reaching_1.jpg

pre-visualize this Eddie Adams sequence? < http://www.thephoblographer.com/2013/02/01/this-week-in-photography-history-eddie-adams-pulitzer-winning-image-was-captured/

was Cartier-Bresson: < http://agonistica.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/henri_cartier-bresson_12.jpeg

< http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-X9IPLHb_g8g/ULpE8ICDbCI/AAAAAAAAAC0/hc83Ca-Qi1I/s1600/Cartier-Bresson4.jpg

PeterN
if any of the above images were lucky accidents. In each case the photographer had some sense of anticipation.

Savageduck
The only anticipation would be a sense that something was happening. For Burrows and especially for Adams the actual something was impossible to anticipate.

PeterN
Sorry, Duck. I can't go along with a notion that in a war, there won't be wounded men, exhausted men carrying ammo, guys totally concentrated on bringing wounded guys into aid stations. If you sent joe snapshooter into a war zone, he would not know where to look, until he acquired some degree of orientation as to what was going on. I agree that the specifics of the image cannot be anticipated, but in each case the photographer could reasonably anticipate that something was going to happen in a specific area.

Savageduck
Cartier-Bresson was perhaps a hair more calculated, intrusive, and opportunistic.

PeterN
When someone says that just sliding a few sliders is all you need ot do, it trivializes the art of photography.

Savageduck
Don't you mean it trivializes the art of the darkroom, wet or digital?

PeterN
No.